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Podcast: Do You See the Church as Lovely? (Dustin Benge)

March 07, 2022 by: Crossway

This article is part of the The Crossway Podcast series.

What Makes the Church Lovely?

In today's episode, Dustin Benge explains why the church—despite all her faults—is worth fighting for.

The Loveliest Place

The Loveliest Place

Dustin Benge

The church—which was created by God, bought by Jesus, and empowered by the Holy Spirit—exists to be a reflection of God’s indescribable love. Learn to see beyond methodology and structure into the church’s eternal beauty with this theologically robust book.

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Topics Addressed in This Interview:

00:57 - Is the Church Really Lovely?

Matt Tully
Dustin, thank you so much for joining me today on The Crossway Podcast.

Dustin Benge
Matt, what a pleasure it is to join you. Thank you for the kind invitation.

Matt Tully
Your new book is called The Loveliest Place, and that title refers to the church—the local church in particular. Help us open up this conversation by responding to the person who hears that title for the church—The Loveliest Place—and their immediate response is Yeah, right!

Dustin Benge
Well, that’s often the response, isn’t it? It’s someone who perhaps feels discouraged when they survey current evangelicalism, if you will, especially and particularly those who are on social media probably too much. We have a very skewed vision and definition of the church from that particular conversation. When we survey the current state of the church, it’s really easy to become discouraged and disheartened, which even leads to being apathetic and cold toward the church. But it seems like, Matt, that every generation sees the challenges that come to the church, and at the moment, we share those challenges. They’re quite large, in fact. Not only does the church, at the moment, face challenges from the outside with pressures to conform to the culture and society around us, but the church faces many inward challenges from scandals, abuse, doctrinal error, in-fighting, disagreement—really just all the rest. When I might get discouraged personally, I have to go to the Scripture to remind myself that the church was never the plan B in the mind and heart of God. Even when Adam and Eve fell in the garden in Genesis 3 and introduced sin into the perfection of God’s creation, the church was still the trajectory of God’s redemptive plan. As such, the church is the object of God’s divine love to us through Christ. That’s how we can call her “the loveliest place.” In speaking quite personally, when I become discouraged, I have to mentally and emotionally shift my perspective from myself—from my own whims or desires or dislikes with what may be going on in my local church—and I have to look heavenward to remind myself of God’s promise to dwell among his people, Christ’s promise that he would build his church, and also the Spirit’s promise that he would be her helper and sanctify her and make her ready for Christ. Jesus said even hell can’t stop his plan for the church, and so our discouragement for the church as a whole often has to do with losing a proper definition of the church. That’s what I hope to achieve—defining the church properly and biblically in The Loveliest Place.

Matt Tully
I want to jump into that definition of what you would say the church is and how that plays into that. But first, you said a minute ago that those who are maybe on social media too much can fall into the thinking that everything is wrong with the church, that there are these problems everywhere. How would you respond to the person who says These new online channels, like Twitter and Facebook, have allowed people who previously didn’t have a voice to speak about the things they were experiencing in the church. They now have a voice and can shed light on that stuff. So really, the problem isn’t really social media or some culture there; these are things that have always been in play, but we just didn’t know about them?

Dustin Benge
Well, they have. In ancient Rome or in the ancient period of the early church, it would have been the public square where some of this would have been talked about and discussed and debated. But now, you carry it in your pocket. You can open any type of social media and see various people voicing opinions, etc. on their current squabbles, as it were, with the church and really pinpointing her failures or disagreements with what might be going on. I’ve often said, Matt, that we love church autonomy until it comes to critiquing another church, and then we don’t quite like that autonomy as much because we want the voice to be able to critique what may be going on in the wider sphere of evangelicalism. There are two things there. First of all, I’m encouraged because the majority of the church is not on social media. For instance, I can go into my parent’s church in eastern Kentucky and I would be safe in saying 98% of the congregants in that church have no idea the current major issues that perhaps you and I would be to voice. So, that’s quite encouraging to me. Secondly, I would simply say—if I can give a moment of advice—do not allow the voice of others to become louder in your heart, mind, and ear than you do the voice of Scripture speaking to you about who the church is and the purpose and mission of the church. It becomes all too easy for our vision to become blurry and foggy and questionable when we allow the voice of others to become louder to us than Scripture itself.

07:48 - Are People Abandoning the Church?

Matt Tully
In your own work as a professor and serving in the church, have you seen people that you knew and loved abandon the church? We’re just now maybe coming out—Lord willing—of this pandemic, which has been a very challenging thing for churches in general. Do you feel like you see this happening more and more—people giving up on the church because they’re listening to these other voices more than they are Scripture?

Dustin Benge
Not necessarily leaving the church, but I would say becoming hardened. That, to me, is a very current problem, that members of the church—those who read their Bibles, are faithful to the church, give to the church, they’re families are in the church, they perhaps teach or serve in some capacity, they’re in worship every Lord’s Day—they become hardened to the fact that these problems are massive. Sometimes I think they have created problems—where perhaps no problems have actually existed—for likes or retweets or whatever the case may be. But overall, I’m still quite encouraged that even after the pandemic what I’m seeing is those who voiced one opinion at the beginning of the closing down of all the churches and various other things have quite reversed some of that opinion and have come out saying No, this has just emphasized the necessity of the corporate gathering of the body of Christ. If anything, the pandemic has shown us that Christianity cannot be lived alone. We’re not called to be hermits, as it were, and go sit in a cave and wait for Christ to return. No, we are part of a body. We are part of a bride. We are part of a local gathering. How vital that is within our own sanctification!

09:57 - Who Is the Church and Why Does She Exist?

Matt Tully
Let’s take a step back for a minute and get to that question of definitions. People use this word—the church—in so many different ways. It’s so casually thrown about, and yet I think sometimes we don’t always mean the same thing that the other person is meaning with that word. How would you define the church?

Dustin Benge
I start out in The Loveliest Place—I think it’s in the introduction—trying to shape a proper understanding of the purpose, the function, and the mission of the church. The only way to do that, of course, is arriving at a very biblical, robust definition. Another important reason, I believe, for building our understanding of the church on a biblical and theological definition is that most of our modern definitions never seem to shift from functionality and success to beauty and loveliness. That’s what I hope to get to in the book. That’s what I’m arguing for. We have great books on the church’s form, methodology, structure, organization, membership, programs, and all the rest of it. We could point out fabulous books that have been tremendously helpful to us. But I’m wanting people to have affections for who the church is and why she exists. So, coming to a definition, the church is the assembly of the redeemed. That is, those who have been called by God the Father to salvation in Christ the Son. For instance, in 1 Peter 2:9 the apostle Peter describes the church as being composed of those “called out of darkness into his marvelous light.” The church is an assembly, a body of the redeemed, the bride of Christ. That’s a short definition. If we dive a bit deeper, we can say the church is the corporate gathering of the redeemed citizens of heaven who have been transmitted from the dominion of darkness into the kingdom of Christ through his shed blood, glorious resurrection, exalted ascension, and present intercession. In other words, the church is about Christ, and that’s how we define her—through the lens of Christ. While the church has a clear command (to make disciples), a clear purpose (the gathering to hear the teaching and preaching of Scripture, and the celebration of the ordinances), a clear mission (evangelizing the lost, maturing believers, etc.), those do not define who the church is. In order to do that, we need to look at Scripture. We need to go back prior to even the creation, as it were, and look in that trinitarian conversation that was going on about the founding of the church.

Matt Tully
What I like about that definition, especially a definition of who we are as the church vs. what we’re called to do and be, is that it has this cosmic sense to it. It has this big, eternal significance to it. It seems like so often when we think about the church we can be so focused on what we do—maybe things that we’re called to do and aren’t doing very well—and also even just the forms and structures that are all important. But do you think sometimes we miss that eternal, cosmic reality that is behind all of that in how we think about the church?

Dustin Benge
Absolutely. We can become very focused on what we’re doing, and that’s not wrong. That’s right, isn’t it? That’s what we should be focused on, but all of that should be under girded by, and all of that is fueled by, the understanding of who the church is. To capture her beauty and her loveliness, the church must be defined not by what we do but by who we are. In order to do that, we have to go back into the eternal work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The church is chosen by God the Father, saved by Christ the Son, and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. If you misunderstand that, all of your ministries, all of your preaching, all of your doctrine, all of your programs—everything—will be wrong. You’re just going to get it wrong if you shift from that biblical, eternal, glorious, lovely definition.

15:20 - Answering Critiques of the Church’s Behavior

Matt Tully
I wonder if someone could be listening right now to this and agrees with you that there is a very important sense that the definition of the church is shaped by what God says about us and who we are. But they may be worried that an emphasis on being defined by who we are vs. what we do could lead us to maybe minimize the significance of a Christian’s behavior when it comes to our calling and our witness. I think that’s maybe at the heart of a lot of the critiques that we see of the church right now is that we have this theology and we have these ideas about who the church is and why it’s so important. And yet, Christians’ behavior and church leaders’ behavior is then kind of ignored and not viewed as important as it really is.

Dustin Benge
That’s a good point. I see that. I see that as an issue now, especially given the rise to the uncovering of horrific things that have taken place within the confines of the church walls, whether that would be abusive relationships, things that are covered up, things that are hidden, etc. The short answer I would give is we need to arrive at a proper definition because God defines the church first by who she is rather than by what she does. We have to go in order, according to the way that God defines her. For instance, in chapter one of The Loveliest Place I begin by examining a verse in the Old Testament—Song of Solomon 1:15: “Behold, you are beautiful, my love; behold, you are beautiful.” That’s a glorious verse, depending on your interpretation of the Song of Solomon. John Guild, for instance, an eighteenth century English Baptist pastor, interprets the Song of Solomon as many others do, as an intense allegorical portrayal of the love, union, and communion that exists between Christ and his bride. Christ looks at his bride, the church, and says, “Behold, you are beautiful, my love; behold, you are beautiful.” This has nothing to do with what she does. This has nothing to do with what she has done or even will do. No, she just radiates beauty in being who she is. What’s so amazing, Matt, is when we consider that the church is composed of sinners—once enemies of God. In our eyes the church is full of spots and blemishes. We have terrible things that take place. We could have many podcasts pointing out those spots and blemishes that sometimes just make the church very disgusting. But Paul comes along in Ephesians 5 and reminds us that at the end of the age, the church will be presented to Christ “in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.” The church isn’t beautiful just because of what she does; the church is beautiful because of who she is in union with Christ. That’s what we’re getting to. The church is beautiful because the lens through which Christ regards her is his cross—the focal point of blood, righteousness, forgiveness, union, justification, regeneration, grace. It’s the cross that makes her beautiful. When we define the church merely by what she does, we lose the gospel. We lose the cross. We lose the substitutionary atonement and union with Christ.

Matt Tully
I think that’s such a helpful thing to emphasize for that reason, but also I think that makes it clear that in calling the church the loveliest place and calling the church beautiful and splendid, that’s not denying the very real faults that we see in our relationships and all these examples that we could list right now. That beauty is not coming from the church itself.

Dustin Benge
Absolutely. That beauty, that loveliness, is not inherent within ourselves. If we were only to look at ourselves, we would have no desire to say that we are beautiful. In fact, it would be like a bride trying to show up at the church on her wedding day with a wedding dress covered in mud. Well, that’s the Holy Spirit’s job, isn’t it? To gradually, sustainingly, sanctifyingly scrape and clean that mud off of us through the preaching of the word, through the ordinances of the church, through fellowship, through proper biblical pastors and elders and deacons—all those forms that we have, all those programs that we put in place. Those are the means by which the Holy Spirit scrapes those spots and blemishes off of us to make us prepared for Christ. But regardless of the mud that still may be on our dress—albeit forgiven—regardless of that mud and regardless of those spots and blemishes, it still doesn’t change who we are: redeemed, holy, perfect, sanctified, glorified. That’s what Paul says at the end of Romans 8. We so often lose our love for the church because we forget that and we concentrate on the mud, we concentrate on the spots and blemishes rather than our union with Christ.

21:55 - What to Do When There Is Disunity in the Church

Matt Tully
That’s such a good reminder. Moving on to another related issue, we can look around and it seems like there is a lot of division and disunity within the church today. There is division around political lines, racial lines, theological lines, and probably a host of other issues. You write in your book, “Too often the church is a house divided against itself.” I have two questions on that front. First, do you think there is more division today in the American evangelical church than in the past? Second, how do we move forward from this spot that we find ourselves in right now?

Dustin Benge
Those two questions could be two separate books in themselves, couldn’t they? I’m not quite sure that I would say any generation is worse than the previous generation. That is, every generation has assaults from our common enemy. As a church historian, I survey the church from the time of early church fathers, just post-apostolic period to Augustine and the Medieval period, for instance (the Dark Ages). Even during the Reformation with stalwarts like Luther and Calvin who were fighting for the truth. The Puritans, who were thrown out of the church and had to find other places. Every single generation has their own challenges, so I don’t think our generation is any different. Satan is Satan, and he’s going to assault the church. Thankfully, our bridegroom has said, I will build the church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against her. In every generation there is a remnant. There is a remnant that Christ continues to build his church. I’ve heard report after report after report in the past two years around the world of how the pandemic has caused the church in their area to explode with growth and maturity. God is doing something here.

Matt Tully
We don’t hear that often. I think we hear the opposite typically.

Dustin Benge
Well, that’s social media for you, isn’t it? That’s the doom and gloom nay-sayers. But then, again, we just have to remind ourselves that there are pockets of what God is doing. It’s so often the case, Matt, that we say God is sovereign, but then we act as if he’s not sovereign. We have to take over, we have to do something to rescue the church. I’ve never seen more people in my life that want to rescue the church. What I’m trying to say through this work is that no, Christ has already rescued the church, and we must put our faith and trust in him. I felt like a book on the loveliness and beauty of the church needed to include a chapter on unity. As I examine Paul’s words, for instance, in Ephesians 4 he says, “there is one body”(Eph. 4:4). We would know that as a catholicity among the body of Christ. There should be a oneness both in the invisible church—the church around the world, of those made up of believers where we have no idea where they are and we’ll only meet them in heaven—and the visible church—those within the very local churches that we attend. Oneness among the people of God is a defining characteristic of the church. Our mind immediately goes—or my my does—to the high priestly prayer of Jesus in John 17, which abounds with oneness petitions. For instance, Jesus prays, “may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they may also be in us”—I love this little last part—“so that the world may believe that you sent me.” I think that’s an amazing verse because what that tells us is that the church—God’s people’s oneness—offers a flawless testimony to a lost world that Jesus is indeed the Son of God. To have disunity is to mar the testimony of the gospel. It’s like having a lit candle and putting it under a basket. I grew up in a church that had fighting and squabbles and all the rest of it, and when that gets out in the community—what’s going on in the local church—that just ruins the gospel testimony and witness. The person who was indignant against the church from the very beginning now has a reason to say I told you. They’re just like anybody else. Why in the world would I attend the church? If that’s what a Christian is, why in the world would I be a Christian? Why is unity so essential? Because, Paul answers in Ephesians 4, we’re going to be tossed about to and fro with every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes. We don’t speak the truth in love, we don’t grow up into him. I could just go on and on, but just simply to say unity is critical because it fosters maturity, it fosters doctrinal stability, discernment, a loving vocabulary, Christ-like growth, church-wide equipping, and spiritual building. Without this unity the world is likely to see the church as a human organization rather than a divine organism.

Matt Tully
That’s the way that it seems like many people do view the church. They don’t see that unity right now and they do wonder about what the value really is here. What would you say to the Christian who wants to believe what you’re saying and knows those biblical doctrines about the church’s unity being so central, and yet, if they’re honest, they feel very discouraged right now and wonders if that kind of unity is actually possible?

Dustin Benge
It’s necessary here to understand what I’m not saying. I’m not saying the church is perfect. I’m not saying the church is always going to do the right things and say the right things. I’m not saying the church will not hurt you, and sometimes hurt you badly. The church has hurt me in ministry—the people of the church. All of this can lead us to feel apathetic and cold and indifferent and questioning all of our lives. I will encourage every listener to this podcast: don’t view the church through the lens of God’s people who are yet to be fully sanctified, but view the church through the lens that God, in Christ, views her. Again, it goes back to that definition. There is no perfect church. Some have said if it was perfect it wouldn’t be perfect once you got there because you’re a sinner, and you’re just going to ruin the whole thing. Don’t expect a perfect church, but let that be an inducement to you to seek one who said that he would never leave you and would never forsake you. Keep your eyes on Christ and see the church as he sees her, as his beloved bride for whom he died. Let it drive you to pray. In seasons like this throughout church history, it drove the church to pray for revival. It often was the case that God sent revival and he awakened the church and repentance took place. Matt, we may be on the cusp of one of the greatest revivals in the history of the church. Let’s pray! Let that be an inducement to us to get on our knees and to seek the face of our heavenly Father, rather than focusing on all of this division. People even with good intentions can bring division within the church because they feel like they’re somehow God’s protector, the church’s protector, and all the rest of it. No, you just need to get out of the way. Jesus said he would build his church and he’s not going to share that with anyone else.

Matt Tully
Dustin, one final question: As you reflect on your local church from the past year, what’s something that you’ve noticed that is beautiful about it?

Dustin Benge
My wife and I, in the first part of December, moved back to the United States from living in Wales for the past two years where I was serving at Union School of Theology in Bridgend, Wales, on the southern coast. While we were there during that period of time, it was just horrific lockdowns and restrictions. I just can’t even begin to describe some of the things that we were kind of forced to do because of the conditions of restriction. There was a period that we were not even allowed to drive five miles beyond our house, so it really created problems with us even worshiping in a local body. We got to know a church in western Wales. It was a small body of believers. I had the tremendous opportunity to preach a number of times in their pulpit and get to know them as people. What I saw, just very personally speaking, what made that church beautiful was an experiential Christianity that was deeply rooted in Scripture, church history, and the faith once delivered to all the saints. When those dear saints would pray, it was almost palpable—the spirituality and the depth of their piety. What that showed me was simply this: that we as believers must be focused on our own personal holiness and relationship with Christ so that when we come together as the body and bride of Christ, we bring all of that, and together, as one, we are beautiful. If you’re neglecting your personal holiness, if you’re neglecting Scripture reading, if you’re neglecting prayer, if you’re neglecting those basic spiritual disciplines and ordinary means of grace, don’t expect your church to be beautiful. In fact, it’s going to be ugly because you are going to contribute your sinful ugliness to it. But if you are concentrated on all those means, once you come together, that church is going to shine. Even with those very, very few believers, that experiential head, heart, and hands all went together to produce a beautiful church so that even, again, with a very small number, I could stand back and see the beauty. My wife and I would leave on our drive home on the Lord’s Day and just say Oh, what an honor it was to serve with that body of believers, because they were just beautiful in and of themselves.

Matt Tully
Dustin, thank you so much for talking with us today about this thing—the local church. As you said, it’s not plan B, but God’s plan A for how he would build his kingdom in this broken world. We appreciate it.

Dustin Benge
Thanks so much, Matt, for having me.

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