Podcast: How Jesus Is Both the Singer and the Subject of the Psalms (Christopher Ash)

February 10, 2025 by: Crossway

This article is part of the The Crossway Podcast series.

How to Meaningfully Incorporate the Psalms in Your Life

In this episode, Christopher Ash dives into why the psalms are essential for our lives as Christians and why Christ is central to the psalms. He explores how the psalms shape our prayers, reflect the fullness of human experience, and point us to Christ as both their singer and subject.

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Topics Addressed in This Interview:

01:21 - Why Are the Psalms So Important?

Matt Tully
Christopher, thank you so much for joining me today on The Crossway Podcast.

Christopher Ash:
It’s a real privilege for me to be back.

Matt Tully
You open this new four-volume commentary that you’ve written on the Psalms with the following line, “Two convictions underlie this commentary. Number one, that the psalms are essential to the life of the Christian church, and two, that Christ is central to the psalms.” And so in our conversation today, I’m hoping we can unpack both of those foundational convictions that you brought to this project and are hoping to help Christians to really embrace as we think about the psalms. But let’s start with that first one, that the psalms are essential to our lives as Christians and to the life of the church. I wonder if you can just give us a high-level summary. Why do you say that? Why are the psalms so important?

Christopher Ash:
Yes. In terms of Scripture, in Ephesians 5 and in Colossians 3 the apostle Paul assumes that Christian churches will sing what he calls “psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.” And all three of those words—translated “psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs”—usually refer to the psalms. Not always, but usually in the Greek Bible. So the apostle Paul assumes churches will do that in continuity with the old covenant church who did that. But it’s just worth exploring why it’s such a blessing. And in Ephesians it’s connected with the filling of the Spirit, of a Spirit-filled church in Colossians—we’ll come back to this, that it’s being filled with the word of Christ—and just this wonderful sense that we don’t know how to speak to God unless God tells us. And if God has given us these 150 amazing poems, songs—many of which are prayers and praises—what a wonderful privilege. I think Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the German pastor, said it was like a sort of children’s primer in how you start learning to speak to God. And the psalms are a wonderful, major way in which God shapes our speaking to him.

Matt Tully
That’s such an interesting insight because I’ve heard many people describe the psalms in that way, and yet if anyone has spent some time reading through the psalms, especially if you’re reading straight through them over the course of a number of days, it’s hard to escape the human, earthly, reality of them. They feel very real, very authentic. Even though they are poetic and they’re beautiful, they also feel very human and very accessible to us and true to even the struggles and the pain and the confusion and the frustration that we can often feel. So to hear you describe them as this resource for us in knowing how to speak to God according to his own desire and plan, but then to realize how human they feel, how do you make sense of that? It almost feels like a bit of an oxymoron.

Christopher Ash:
It’s an amazing condescension of God that he should give us these things, these poems. As you say, they’re really earthy, and they express all the affections and the fears and the hopes and the loves of the life of faith. It’s so wonderful that God has given us that. He hasn’t given us something just way above our level that we can never understand or identify with. You read a psalm and again and again you think, Yeah, I get this. I get not just what it says, but I get what it feels like. And it’s a wonderful condescension of God that he should do that. I think there’s a lot more we could say in terms of them being the prayers of Jesus. But just at the basic level, God is so kind to have given us these wonderful, earthy poems.

Matt Tully
So if it’s true, as you say, that the psalms are, in terms of the New Testament’s perspective on the early church and these Christians and even ancient Israel, if the psalms were the core of how people prayed to God and what they thought about their relationship with God through, why is it that, as you write in this commentary, the psalms have sometimes been marginalized in church life today? Depending on the denominational background that we might be coming from, we might be able to testify to that, that the psalms don’t play a particularly central role in the church’s worship. Why do you think that’s happened sometimes?

Christopher Ash:
I think it’s a really interesting question, because I think a lot of people listening to this, and certainly some of my background, the psalms have got marginalized and we might preach on them from time to time, but they’re not part of our week by week life of prayer and praise. I wish I knew the answer, because it’s an aberration in terms of Christian history. And I’m not making any denominational point or anything like that, but it just is a bit of an oddity. I wonder if it’s partly that they are quite difficult, as you said earlier, Matt. It you cherry pick the bits you like, they’re fine but if you read Psalm 1, then Psalm 2, then Psalm 3, then Psalm 4, and you try to read all the psalms, or sing all the psalms, you hit all sorts of things that need a bit more thought. And maybe some of our Christian songs, some of which are excellent, but they’re just more accessible and easier. It doesn’t mean they’re better. The psalms have the great advantage of being inspired by the Holy Spirit, which even our best song and hymn writers don’t have. But they can be a bit inaccessible. They can just feel a bit strange.

Matt Tully
Yeah, and I think sometimes one thing I’ve noticed as I read through the Psalms is there can often feel like there’s some redundancy. One psalm goes to the next, and you can hear some of the same themes come out repeatedly. What do you make of that? Has that ever been a struggle for you? How do you understand what’s going on with that?

Christopher Ash:
I think we probably just need to embrace the repetition and to think, Actually, I need this. It’s like Psalm 136, where every single verse has the same refrain. It’s just the sense that it takes time for these things really to get through and into my bloodstream spiritually, and therefore just to embrace the repetition. It’s a bit like the apostle Peter says in 2 Peter, “I’m going to tell you things you already know, and I’m not going to worry about that, because you need me to say them again and again.”

Matt Tully
So Christopher, as you think back on your own life and your own journey with the psalms, is there a moment or maybe a season of your life when you feel like you first realized how important, how central the psalms are—and should be—for your life as a Christian?

Christopher Ash:
Not one defining moment, but I think as I’ve gradually taught psalms and preached on psalms, it’s gradually got into my bloodstream more. I remember working through Psalm 119 for a year. I did a verse a day, and then I taught it and preached it. And it just began to get into my bloodstream, and I began to think, Ah! This is really important. I think it’s a succession of preaching and teaching, and it’s kind of overflowed back into my own life, or maybe it’s overflowed out of my own life into the preaching. That’s probably better.

08:59 - Common Misconceptions About the Psalms

Matt Tully
As you think about the way that you, perhaps, as a younger person and a younger Christian viewed the psalms, or even as you’ve talked with other Christians about the psalms, what are some of the most common misconceptions or misunderstandings that people might bring to the psalms that could lead them to undervalue them?

Christopher Ash:
I think one goes back to the Romantic movement, and it’s that often people speak and think as though we value the psalms because they make us feel good. It’s a sort of aesthetic thing, by which we mean the bits we like make us feel good. You have to pick quite carefully if you’re going to feel good. And so there’s that sense of the cherry picking, and that’s really dangerous because it means we’re the ones who are in the driving seat. We’re deciding which bits resonate with us. I remember once hearing somebody saying they’d heard a pastor somewhere saying he read through the psalms until something resonated with his own experience. And I was thinking, That sounds nice. Actually, it’s terrible, because it’s just making the psalms an echo chamber for what I’m feeling. They’re Scripture. They should be in the driving seat, shaping the way I feel and think.

Matt Tully
And of course, it’s not wrong for us to notice when we do feel a certain immediate, visceral resonance with something that’s being said. But I think, to your point, that’s not the only criteria for assessing how important the psalm is or what God might be doing through those words.

Christopher Ash:
For me, and I think probably I’m not alone on this, that in the last perhaps two or three years particularly, the psalms have helped me to learn to lament, with a sort of avalanche of ministry scandals and disillusion and sadness as our cultures move further and further away from any kind of Christian foundations. And the Psalms, I’m finding more and more, really help me to know how to lament, and how to lament with hope and how to lament with faith that the promises of God aren’t changed. That the light shines in the darkness and the darkness can never overcome it and never will.

11:28 - The Psalms Belong to Christ

Matt Tully
The other central conviction that you bring to this new commentary is that Christ is central to the psalms. And that might not strike people as something they’ve never heard before. I know people who are in our circles will know that Christ is in the psalms. Ultimately, they might think of them as pointing forward to Christ in different ways. But you actually go a little further than that. You argue that the psalms belong to Christ. You use that language of belonging and of ownership almost. I wonder if you can unpack that a little bit for us. What do you mean by that when you say the psalms belong to Christ?

Christopher Ash:
The way the New Testament quotes and echoes the psalms is very rich and nuanced, and you can’t just boil it down without being simplistic. But I think one of the things that’s really struck me is the ways in which the psalms seem to have been the prayer life and praise life of the Lord Jesus in the days of his flesh. That as a pious believing Jew, never mind being the incarnate Son of God, that the psalms would have been a very natural way in which he would have expressed his prayers and his praises, and they give a window into his inner life. So in a way, that’s probably been the biggest single thing that’s been driving me. As you say, we’re very familiar with Psalm 22, Psalm 110, or Psalm 2—ways in which the New Testament quotes some of the big Premier League Psalms, as it were. But I’ve just been thrilled to explore how the lesser-known Psalms also express the life of faith, really, lived sinlessly by Jesus, and what the life of faith feels like, when Jesus lives it as our forerunner.

Matt Tully
Maybe it could feel straightforward to see Christ in some of those maybe very clearly Messianic psalms, especially ones that are quoted or alluded to in the New Testament. But there are some psalms that seem a little more tricky, like maybe the penitential psalms or the imprecatory psalms, where it’s like, Where is Jesus in this? How does this connect to what Jesus was all about—who he was and what he came to do? Give us a little sense of how we could think about seeing Christ as central to those kinds of psalms.

Christopher Ash:
Thanks, Matt. I think you put your finger on two of the biggest puzzles that we hit. The penitential psalms—it’s just really interesting. The obvious thing to say is that when a psalmist expresses penitence or confesses their sin, that Jesus could not have prayed that, because he was without sin. The problem is that, for example, Psalm 40, which is clearly quoted of Jesus in Hebrews 10, also contains a very clear confession of sin. And you just have to sort of cut them out from all sorts of places in the psalms. And the thing that really helped me with the penitential psalms is when John the Baptist, who’s giving a baptism of repentance for sins, Jesus, his cousin, comes to be baptized. And as Matthew tells us, John the Baptist says, “You don’t need this. This isn’t right.” And Jesus says, “Yes, this is the right thing to do. This fulfills all righteousness.” And somehow the shadow of our sin fell on the Lord Jesus well before the cross. And somehow he can pray, as it were, as the leader—the representative leader, the covenant leader, the federal head of his people—he can pray prayers of repentance as the one who was made sin for us (2 Cor. 5). And so there’s that sense in which he does it. That he who is without sin can pray these prayers, as the one who bears the sins of his people. So I think that’s, in a nutshell, the way to read the expressions of repentance. The so-called imprecations, where the psalmists are praying for God to punish the wicked, some of which are really strong, like Psalm 109 and Psalm 69. But all over the place you get these prayers that God would—well, it’s a prayer for the last judgment, really. And I think it’s enormously helpful to think of Jesus—who taught us to forgive our enemies, to pray for our enemies and so on—that he did also teach us to pray “your kingdom come.” And whenever we pray “your kingdom come,” we are praying for the last judgment. We’re praying for Jesus to return. We’re praying for God to judge the world in righteousness by the man he’s appointed. We’re praying for those who are finally impenitent to be removed from creation, so they won’t be in the new creation. And Jesus did teach us to pray that. And it’s a very sobering and difficult thing, but we do need, if we care for the honor of God, to pray that. But there’s a sense in which only Jesus can lead us in praying that, because he himself would bear the wrath of God on behalf of all who will trust in him. I remember a friend of mine, John Woodhouse in Sydney, saying that that expression in Revelation, “the wrath of the Lamb,” is just a really thought-provoking expression, isn’t it? The wrath of the Lamb, who dies for sinners, that his wrath, he’s the one who can pray for that. He’s the one who can do that judgment because he’s the one who dies for sinners. So those are very brief, and there’s more in the commentary where I’ve tried to open up how I think we should read those things, but there are some headlines.

Matt Tully
Yeah, that’s something that we can often neglect or forget about in the New Testament. We can sometimes pit this Old Testament depiction of God as being, at times, full of wrath and full of judgment, and we can pit that against this depiction of Jesus or this maybe paper-thin depiction of Jesus that we have in our minds where he’s just all mercy and all forgiveness. And we can neglect both the love and the mercy of God in the Old Testament and the wrath and the justice of Christ in the New Testament. So another way that you describe how you see Jesus at play in the psalms is that he is both the singer and the subject of the psalms. But I think one question that we can have is, What are the rules of the road, so to speak, for interpreting the psalms in that way and seeing Christ in this central role without devolving into some kind of allegorical reading, where we’re finding Jesus under every rock and behind every shrub, so to speak? What would you say to that, when it comes to faithfully, responsibly seeing Christ in the Psalms?

Christopher Ash:
Yeah, well, it’s a big question. In the introductory volume of the commentary, I tried to study, really, every quotation and, as far as I could, the clear echoes from the psalms in the New Testament and try and piece together how the Holy Spirit guided the New Testament writers to understand the psalms in their relation to Christ. It’s probably fair to say that the headlines would be that they taught us to understand the psalms as speaking of and for Christ in his human nature, in the days of his flesh, and also of the dignity of Christ as the one who would judge the world in righteousness. But also that they teach us to understand the psalms such that the things of Christ overflow to the people of Christ. So because we are in Christ, Christ is, what Augustine famously called, “the whole Christ”—head and members. We, as the members of his body, the things that are true of Christ overflow to us. So for example, perhaps most strongly, his sufferings overflow to his people. We do not die on behalf of sinners; he has done that, with full sufficiency. But we experience an overflow of his sufferings. We suffer with him that we may be glorified with him. And therefore, when we read psalms of suffering, we read his sufferings foreshadowed. But we also read something that is experienced in his church. Psalm 44, quoted in Romans 8: “like sheep to the slaughter.” Those are sort of some of the headlines. Christ in his human nature, Christ with the dignity of deity, and the overflow of Christ to his members. But it’s a bigger and more complicated picture, and I’ve tried so far as I can to trace it out as best I can. People might not agree with everything I’ve done, but that’s what I’ve tried to do.

Matt Tully
And that’s why this commentary is four volumes, and you really had to have some time and some space to be careful and be nuanced. Let’s talk about the commentary itself. As you already mentioned, the first volume of this four-volume set is essentially an introductory volume that lays out some groundwork that then you’re going to apply in volumes two, three, and four as you walk through all of the psalms. Just very briefly, anything else you would say about what that first volume is doing and why that’s an important starting point, let’s say, for digging into the rest?

Christopher Ash:
The first section really explores how the New Testament shapes our reading of the psalms. I did some doctrinal essays on doctrinal questions, like the incarnation and prophecy and the doctrine of prayer, and something on prayers for God’s judgment and who the righteous are in the psalms. So that’s one section of the commentary. And then one of the things I most enjoyed doing was the final section, or nearly the final section, which is on how the psalms have been understood in Christian history. And it was just really rich. I learned so much. And particularly, I sometimes slightly mischievously say that I’m trying to reconnect us with the first three quarters or more of Christian history. But when you read the church fathers—or so far as I know, people in the Middle Ages, the Reformation, and some after that, like the Puritans—Christ is everywhere in their reading of the psalms. And then with a few golden exceptions, when you read more recent commentaries, Christ is either nowhere or a footnote. I really enjoyed trying to trace through some of the main lines of how the psalms have been read in Christian history. Not that that’s our authority; Scripture is our authority. I used to say to my students sometimes at the Cornhill Training Course that if they come up with a reading that nobody’s thought of before, they just might be wrong. So it’s instructive to read Christian history.

22:47 - A Commentary on the Psalms

Matt Tully
Absolutely. Like we said, volumes two, three, and four are the actual commentary, going through all of the psalms. And I just wonder if we could break down briefly what you’re doing for each of those psalms. I think it’s really helpful the way you’ve structured the book, and that the types of content that you’re helping provide readers is really, really helpful. So the first thing that you do for every psalm is you include a list of maybe two or three quotes that set things up. What was the purpose of including those quotes?

Christopher Ash:
They’re kind of teasers, really, or appetite wetters. I loved finding them. I would just pick maybe two or three of the best quotations I’d come across—often from older writers and occasionally from more recent writers. And I just put them there as teasers to help people to think, Oh! This could be a great psalm to study.

Matt Tully
And then you move into this orientation section. And I think it’s interesting the way you do this. Oftentimes in a commentary, you start with the text of the passage of Scripture itself. So in this case, you start with the actual text of the psalm, and you do get to that. You do walk through every line of the psalm, but you actually start with an orientation section that is taking a little bit broader perspective. Why start there rather than have that be at the end?

Christopher Ash:
Yes. I thought long and hard. Because the commentary isn’t part of a series, I wasn’t constrained by a format that I had to use. So I thought and I experimented a bit. And as you say, a lot of commentaries would start with the text and then reflect on it. I just thought it was worth setting the scene, as it were, pulling back the camera, thinking, Where is this psalm in the Psalter? What are the nearby psalms? What’s the context? What might the context be in history, if we know? Often we don’t, but sometimes we may have some idea, and sometimes we know for sure. How does it fit with the whole Bible story? How does it fit with Christ? I asked some of those kinds of things at the beginning. It’s almost like saying to people, “Before you read the psalm, put your whole-Bible spectacles on, and then read the psalm in the light of the whole Bible.” And I think it works. I mean, others will judge better than me whether it works. I found as I worked through it, I thought, Yeah, I think this is a worthwhile way of doing the commentary.

Matt Tully
Yeah, I in particular really appreciate the way that you set the particular psalm in the broader context of the history of redemption and of the New Testament. Again, that helps us to approach the psalm to read the actual text of the psalm through this Christ-centered lens, understanding him as both the singer and the subject of all of these psalms. So the next section is the text, the actual text of the psalm. Anything distinctive about the way that you walk through each psalm?

Christopher Ash:
I’m not sure that there is, really. I used the ESV, which was great as a base text. It’s not an academic commentary, but if there was some translation question or textual question, I would certainly reference that. And I would try to just sort of pick up the flow to try and help a reader of the commentary to read through the text, picking up the flow, picking up some of the affections and the emotions expressed by the psalm, some of the ways in which the parallelism might work in different psalms, something about the structure, if it’s clear. Often, I found in a psalm that if you had three commentators, they’d come up with four different structures. And so the structure isn’t always clear. But if there was something, I would try to say something about that, just to help somebody to walk through it. And if there was a Bible idiom or a particular word that’s significant because of the way it resonated with other Scriptures, I would try to say something about that. I put in some cross references. It’s not very exciting reading, but it’s a resource if you’re going to work through it.

Matt Tully
And then the final section that you include for each psalm is this area of reflection and response. So again, distinguish that from the orientation. What are you trying to do as you close each section?

Christopher Ash:
I was trying to say, “If I make this psalm part of my life, or if we as a congregation or church make this psalm part of our life of prayer and praise, how might we respond to it? How might it shape our prayers and our praises?” And so, in a way, it was just sort of a slightly miscellaneous collection of responses. Sometimes some more good quotations from older writers that I thought were helpful. It’s not comprehensive, but just to get the reader thinking, How might we respond to this psalm in our devotions?

Matt Tully
I was struck that this is not a devotional per se. You didn’t write this as a daily devotional. It’s a commentary. And yet it is so devotionally edifying. It could be used in that way. Someone could take one psalm a day or a week or however much they want to do it and work through what you’ve written, working through the full text of the psalm itself, and really be edified and find a lot of value in thinking very carefully about what it is this psalm is teaching us.

Christopher Ash:
Yes, I’ve had a number of people saying that they are doing that and finding it profitable. As always, when you read a commentary, there’ll be some bits you leave on the side of the plate. When I give a list of all the detailed echoes from nearby psalms, you probably want to leave that on the edge of your plate. But it does seem that it can function as something that can nourish. My wife is using it, and I always think that is encouraging for me.

28:48 - Lightning Round

Matt Tully
Maybe just a few, shall we say, lightning round questions here at the end. What is one of your favorite psalms? I won’t ask you to pick your favorite, because that’s probably impossible to do, but what would be one of your favorite psalms and why?

Christopher Ash:
It’s a very odd answer, but Psalm 74 keeps coming to the forefront. It’s a desperately sad psalm of lament prompted by the destruction of Jerusalem. And I found it helped me to lament, but also in the middle of it, there’s a magnificent little section celebrating God’s order of creation. And it’s just a reminder that every time the sun rises, it’s a sign that God hasn’t given up on his covenant promises. So Psalm 74 has become strangely precious to me. I suspect it’s not in most people’s top ten. It has meant a lot to me.

Matt Tully
That’s the wonderful thing about the psalms and about all of Scripture is that as we commit ourselves to it and spend time reading God’s word, certain passages are going to resonate with us. They’re going to speak to our life in a certain concrete way, and they’ll become precious to us in a very unique, very personal way. And that’s just one of the blessings of Spirit-inspired Scripture in our lives. What’s one concrete way that individual Christians listening right now could meaningfully incorporate the psalms into their personal lives on a regular basis?

Christopher Ash:
I think taking either a psalm a day or a psalm a week and reading it out loud and meditating on it can be a very rich thing. And I think a number of people have found it really helpful to ask the question, What would this psalm have meant to Jesus in the days of his flesh? Imagine him on a mountainside in his prayers early in the morning or whenever. What would it have meant for Jesus to pray this psalm? How might that have expressed his faith and devotion? And I think many have found that a rich question to ask. The answers will be different depending on the psalm, but I think a number of people have found that helpful.

Matt Tully
What about pastors and church leaders who want to incorporate the psalms more intentionally into their church’s corporate worship? What’s one idea for what that might look like?

Christopher Ash:
Well, the challenge is music. Churches that are happy with a more perhaps old fashioned singing of metrical psalms, and of course, a number of denominations do that routinely. Others who want a different musical style, there’s an increasing number of resources. I’m in the process of trying to put together a collection of musical resources to try to help church pastors to do that. But even if you don’t do it musically, on week one of the year, you can say, “As a congregation, we will say Psalm 1 together.” Give perhaps a brief introduction about where it fits in. And then on the second Sunday, say Psalm 2. The third Sunday, say Psalm 3. Even if you don’t do anything musical, that’s a start. But saying it out loud together.

Matt Tully
It can be so simple. Sometimes we can overcomplicate things, but really, whether we’re a pastor leading a church or a parent leading a family, just simply reading them together out loud can go a long way.

Christopher Ash:
Yes.

Matt Tully
All right, maybe a final lightning round question for you. If you had to describe the psalms to someone who’s never read them before, maybe a non-Christian who just is not very familiar with this portion of the Bible—a big chunk right in the middle—how would you describe them? What would you say, very briefly?

Christopher Ash:
I think I would say these are wonderful songs written by God to shape us in speaking to God.

Matt Tully
Wonderful.

Christopher Ash:
How about that? Do you think that works?

Matt Tully
That’s so good. All right, final question, Christopher. In your acknowledgements for this commentary, you admitted that there were times when you came close to abandoning this project. I wonder if you could just explain why did you feel that way, and what was it that ultimately kept you going to completion?

Christopher Ash:
Yeah, you’re quite right. There were more than one occasion that I wrote a mental email to Crossway to say, “I can’t do it. It’s too much. It’s just too big.” Because writing a commentary is hard work. You might say, “Well, you knew there were 150 psalms before you started.” And of course I did in theory, but when you’re on Psalm 38 or whatever and you think, Oh no! Am I ever going to get here? So it’s just the sheer volume of it. And working through it line after line and reading around, it’s just extraordinarily hard work. So that’s why I nearly gave up. I think I’m an obstinate person, and there’s something in me that says, “Well, I’ve just moved my left foot forward, so now it’s time to move my right foot forward.” And I’ll just plod on. And sometimes it was thrilling, sometimes it was just a really hard grind.

Matt Tully
You mentioned before we started recording that this is a project that’s been your main focus for at least the last five years or so. So the scope of this—the number of psalms, as you mentioned—required a lot of time of working through these very carefully, thinking very deeply about these passages.

Christopher Ash:
Yes. I’ve turned seventy now, and you think to yourself, I don’t know how many years of strength and health the Lord might give me. I want to use the time as well as I can. And to have used the second half of my sixties for this, there’s an opportunity cost. There are other things you can’t do. And rightly or wrongly, I hoped and prayed that this would be a valuable resource and a worthwhile thing to do. I mean, others will judge that.

Matt Tully
Well, as someone who has dipped into what you’ve done, and we’ve heard from many others who have already been reading what you’ve done, we are so grateful for the work that you put into this. It’s a beautiful commentary that really does ultimately point us to Christ, point us to our Savior, who, as you say, is both the singer and the subject of these beautiful songs in Scripture. Christopher, thank you so much for talking with us today.

Christopher Ash:
Thank you, Matt. It’s a privilege.

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