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Podcast: Marriage Questions about Sex, Submission, and In-Laws (Chad and Emily Van Dixhoorn)

December 12, 2022 by: Crossway

This article is part of the The Crossway Podcast series.

Quick Questions about Marriage

In today's episode, Chad and Emily Van Dixhoorn share personal insight on a number of questions related to marriage, discussing topics like submission, relationships with family, the ultimate purpose of marriage, and how couples can cultivate a marriage marked by grace and forgiveness.

Gospel-Shaped Marriage

Gospel-Shaped Marriage

Chad Van Dixhoorn, Emily Van Dixhoorn

In Gospel-Shaped Marriage, Chad and Emily Van Dixhoorn give a concise assessment of the biblical design for marriage while offering practical advice for married life from a grace-filled perspective.

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Topics Addressed in This Interview:

01:41 - What is marriage for?

Matt Tully
Chad and Emily, thank you so much for joining me today on The Crossway Podcast.

Chad Van Dixhoorn
Thank you for having us.

Emily Van Dixhoorn
It’s a pleasure to be here.

Matt Tully
Today I want to go through a number of quick questions that people often have—that we all have—about marriage, whether we are single and wanting to be married, maybe recently married, or have been married for a long time. There’s so much to marriage, and it can be sometimes confusing. We might not know how to think about or handle a certain situation. Chad, how would you summarize the Bible’s big, overarching teaching on the meaning and the purpose of marriage? I think that’s something that we sometimes maybe assume that we know or understand, but if we were asked, Tell me, simply, what is marriage for we might struggle to actually give a definition. And certainly, in the broader culture, I think there’s a lot of confusion about why marriage exists and what it’s for. So how would you summarize that?

Chad Van Dixhoorn
Well, going back to the garden we see it’s for mutual support and companionship. We can figure out from Genesis 1 and 2 it’s for the reproduction of the human race. After the fall, it’s also for the promotion of sexual purity. And marriage is one context in which we can multiply our usefulness as Christians, and encourage each other in the Christian race as we run together. So marriage is a help in sanctification and glorifying God. In the context of the church, the marriage is also designed as a place where the church can grow—Christian parents having children and raising them in the Lord. So there’s that extra purpose for Christians. Going beyond a definition, marriage is also a context for some unique things, and that includes sexual activity. So those are just a few thoughts about marriage.

Matt Tully
Emily, the New Testament also then continues and expands on what we see in the Old Testament, laid out in Genesis and other places. And Paul, in particular, says some really important things about marriage and what it’s meant to do for us, what we’re supposed to think about when we think of marriage. I wonder if you could unpack a little bit of what we see there.

Emily Van Dixhoorn
Well, marriage also pictures the relationship between Christ and the Church in a mysterious way. Christ is the head, the church is the body. Christ is the groom, the church is the bride. We have this loving relationship with Christ that is pictured in marriage. And we get to portray some of that mystery by being a married couple, following God’s order.

03:32 - How should Christians think about roles in marriage?

Matt Tully
That leads to another question, Emily, that I wanted to ask you. How should Christians think about men and women’s roles in marriage—the distinct positions that we each occupy and how we’re supposed to live that out? Again, I think that’s another topic that in our culture today, there are a lot of different opinions about what that should look like, and maybe there’s often even a questioning of any kind of distinctive roles that men and women—a husband and a wife—should play in the marriage relationship. What would you say about that?

Emily Van Dixhoorn
I’d like to say, first of all, the Bible is clear that both men and women are made in God’s image. So, that’s clear. We both have equal dignity before God. There are still unique roles that we play, and both have dignity in them. The husband is the head, and it’s not lovely when there are two heads. There’s an image I have pulled up before to remind me of this of a snake with two heads. I do not want to be the second head. The wife is the body. I prefer the image of Simone Biles—how the body and the head work so beautifully together to God’s glory in the amazing things that she does as a gymnast. And other athletes show this. And so I want our marriage to be, in a sense, athletic. I like sports, and I want the head and the body to work well together. And that means the body’s got to submit. I don’t want to fight back against him. Now, he, as a husband, does seek to understand me. He doesn’t force me to do things that I don’t want to do. So we work in a harmonious way, and that’s why sometimes an image is worth a thousand words, so I like to think of an athlete working together.

Matt Tully
Chad, I wonder if you could speak to maybe some of the dangers that we can face on two sides of the road. On the one side, what are some of the dangers of over-emphasizing the differences of our roles in marriage and the differences between a husband and a wife? On the other side, what would you say are the dangers associated with downplaying those differences and acting like there is no distinction there?

Chad Van Dixhoorn
People who like to talk a lot about the differences—husbands who, especially, like to talk constantly about submission—tend to flatten out the dynamics of a relationship. They’re seeking a kind of uncomplicated way to look at life. It’s a bit like parents who view every problem with their children as having to do with respect. And it leads to a kind of un-nuanced and unhelpful approach to relationships. I think that it’s most helpful for us, when we’re thinking about our differences, to think about how we can use our differences to glorify God and bless each other, and not how to use those to triumph over one another, to win, to argue, and more. That’s obvious, but some things are so obvious and important that they still need to be said. The undermining of differences leads us to headless marriages, the kind of thing that Emily is talking about, where there’s a refusal to acknowledge that the Lord has built a structure into a marriage, that there is leadership, that there is headship. We don’t always agree with one another, but there are times when—and I would say not very often in our marriage—but there are times when a decision needs to be made, and we can’t just kind of punt it back and forth endlessly or be arbitrary in who takes the responsibility for that. So, submission is a kind respect and serving of one another. This is a dirty word in our culture, but it’s a blessing, as the Lord has intended it and as the Lord constructs it. There’s mutual submission, but we also need to remember that a wife is especially called to excel in this grace, and the Lord blesses her in it.

Matt Tully
I wonder if you could unpack that briefly, because I think in certain circles we hear a lot about a wife’s calling to submit to her husband and a husband’s calling to love his wife, but there is also, as you said, clear teaching in Scripture that both husbands and wives submit to one another, in a sense. Unpack that. How should we understand that exhortation in Scripture in light of the distinctive roles that God has given us?

Chad Van Dixhoorn
Early in our marriage, we picked up a used copy of an old piece by a Puritan named William Gough. He doesn’t get everything right. Of course, neither do we. But he had some important insights. The thing that we latched onto was his observation—being a Puritan, he discusses this at length—that the roles of husband and wife, parent and child, employer and employee (master and servant) are all prefaced by this call—part of the standard package of the fruit of the Spirit—for Christians to submit to one another. And so he looks at these three relationships—not removing the distinctions between husband and wife and our own responsibilities—but he says this somehow has to inform what the apostle Paul is saying. One example where we see this is children being told to obey their parents, but then the father is being told, Don’t exasperate your children. There he sees a kind of mutuality, a concern for one another. The apostle Paul (and God himself, of course) designs for us each to hear one another’s responsibilities and duties. And he does that not so that I can bless Emily by reminding her constantly that she has certain responsibilities towards me, but so that I can say, Well, what’s her call? If her calling is to honor me, to respect and submit to me, how can I sweeten that? How can I make that as easy as possible? And Gough says, Try and avoid asking her to do anything that she doesn’t want to do. Try to do as much of that as you can yourself. Try and understand what’s most difficult for her, and see how much of that burden you can lighten or remove. And then vice versa. If I’m supposed to love my wife, what can Emily do to make that easier for me? How could she lighten that load for me? Although, Emily, it’s not a load in our marriage, but how could she sweeten that task? And so he just constantly thinks about this and he has little charts and so on. And we just kind of ran with that. We talk about mutual submission, but then we talk about how grace is operative in a marriage, especially when I have an eye to her duties—not to preach to her, not to bless her by reminding her what they are, but to bless her by sweetening her tasks and duties and callings.

10:27 - How can I live with my spouse in an understanding way?

Matt Tully
It’s such a beautiful vision that Scripture first, but as you say Gough and others, lay out for the kind of intentionality and service mindset that we want to have towards one another in marriage. There’s a story in the book that illustrates this well. I wonder, Emily, if you could tell us a little bit about the early morning orange juice incident, or EMOJI, as you call it for short. What happened there? And then I’d love to hear, Chad, explain what you learned through that.

Emily Van Dixhoorn
Alright. As I recall, we were married for a while. He asked me in a very loving, caring, sweet way, Emily, would you like some ice in your orange juice? So I asked him, Chad, how long have we been married? And he said, Eleven years.

Matt Tully
So Chad, really quick: alarm bells are probably going off in your head at this point when you get that question?

Chad Van Dixhoorn
Oh, yes. Definitely. The sweet question triggered a high state of alert with me.

Emily Van Dixhoorn
I said, Have I ever said yes?

Chad Van Dixhoorn
No, I think you said, Have you asked this question before?

Emily Van Dixhoorn
Yes, Have you asked this question before? And he said, Oh, yes! He asked me about every day! And I said, Have I ever said yes? And he said, Actually, no. No, you haven’t.

Chad Van Dixhoorn
Although, later it occurred to me that I think she asked for everything at least once when she’s pregnant. But basically, I had been totally insensitive, just not paying attention to her, not studying her well enough. I mean it’s a pretty obvious thing here. This is pretty low-hanging fruit. But really just not reflecting on who she is, what her joys are.

Emily Van Dixhoorn
I think we’re at a point now where you would know that you would know. A bartender knows what the drink is. But he doesn’t yet know whether I like ice in my orange juice, and we’ve been married for eleven years! But we had good fun with that. I like setting him up to just tease him a little bit. I will say that.

Matt Tully
Emily, speak to that because it is kind of a funny example, and in the grand scheme of a marriage, it’s a very minor moment that almost could go unnoticed or forgotten. And yet I think many of us who are married have experienced similar things like that. Maybe mostly men, but probably some wives as well. And it kind of does get at a deeper reality and a deeper thing that is important. So Emily, how would you articulate how it made you feel when Chad asked you that question? Again, a genuine question in the moment, but what was going on there in your mind?

Emily Van Dixhoorn
How did I feel? Just a little bit like, Are you serious? Can you really ask me again whether I want ice? Do you really think you’re being kind in your kind voice by not really paying attention to me? I know that he would get a good laugh out of me busting him, and so we do that in a playful way.

Matt Tully
Chad, what about you? As you think about that experience, what would be the lesson for husbands as they think about what it means to live with their wives in an understanding way and to know their wives? What could they learn from that?

Chad Van Dixhoorn
I think of Emily’s call to love and respect me, and I think I would be more lovable and I would be more respectable—easier to respect and follow—if I was more clued in. I just think I’m making her Christian life harder if I’m just on autopilot when I’m around her, rather than being a thoughtful person. And so for me it’s a call to say, Wait a minute. What else don’t I know? Do I know her favorite color? Do I know what flowers she likes? How well do I know my wife? We still hear stories about one another and so on from time to time that are new and we’ve not heard it before. That’s kind of fun. But this is pretty basic. And so I think I went into maintenance mode and thought I really need to kind of double down and work harder at getting to know my wife, and being attentive when I’m around her. And that will make her calling to respect me easier.

14:58 - What does it look like to argue well in a marriage?

Matt Tully
Emily, what does it look like to argue well in a marriage? Because there are going to be those times when we disagree, and that’s unavoidable, so what does it look like to argue in a way that honors each other and honors God?

Emily Van Dixhoorn
Timing is a big deal. Some things you need to pause so you’re not discussing it in the heat of the moment. Wait until the person is well fed, wait until there’s minimal other factors. If the person has a deadline they’re approaching, that’s not the time to raise a discussion where there’s some controversy. Ask, Is there a time we can talk about this? Make a respectful appeal to talk about something, and pray that the Lord would help him understand the issue. Pray that we would both understand, that I would understand his perspective. So, timing—not to speak out of passions, the heat of the moment, but to speak in a measured way.

Chad Van Dixhoorn
I’d say that Emily works really hard at that.

Emily Van Dixhoorn
I work really hard at that?

Chad Van Dixhoorn
I think so. I think you do a great job with that.

Emily Van Dixhoorn
Well, thank you. The alternative is just horrible, so I don’t like I have to work that hard. It’s just a fruitless effort and can lead to bigger arguments. So, be patient, be prayerful, and then listen to one another. And then also give the person space to understand. Their first reaction, or his first reaction to what I say, may be one where he doesn’t quite understand yet what I’m saying. But that’s okay. I am not going to force immediate understanding. I will be content just to have presented perspective before him, and then over time he may say, Oh, I get it now what you’re saying. I agree with this aspect of what you’re saying. Or it just moves forward. So, patience and prayer.

17:20 - How do we handle issues relating to sexual intimacy?

Matt Tully
That’s so helpful. Chad, another one of those issues in marriage that can be really tricky, and it maybe can be surprisingly tricky. You think it’s going to be easier or more straightforward before you get married, and then you get married and you realize, Oh wow! This can be difficult sometimes. And that relates to sexual intimacy, and even conversations about that as a couple. Do you have any advice for how married couples should approach that topic in conversation? How do we, as married couples, talk to one another about those things—things that can, for all kinds of reasons, be very, very sensitive issues?

Chad Van Dixhoorn
Emily compares it to sort of the closet—just a place where you just don’t want to go, it’s too messy, you feel hopeless about it. Well, what Emily just said about conflict also applies to issues of sexuality and intimacy. Giving it time, looking for the right space. Usually, I would say often, these questions are not dealt with best just before, during, or after a time of special intimacy. You need some space—when people are not at their most vulnerable. I think as well before dealing with questions that might relate to problems of intimacy or issues in the bedroom, taking a kind of good, hard look at how the rest of the day’s going. Is the problem that we’re having with intimacy related to the fact that I’m grouchy all day and unhelpful and insensitive? On a much larger scale than ice cubes and orange juice, am I just not reading people in situations well? So, step stepping back and asking are the problems in the realm of intimacy related to the fact that we are turning in on ourselves due to a lack of productivity in our marriage? That’s clumsy, but is the only time we spend together entertainment based, or do we have productive things that we do together? I think sometimes—Emily, tell me what you think—but I think sometimes marriage issues—intimacy issues—are partly because someone in the house is sort of overanalyzing everything all the time. Maybe sometimes what’s needed is just to go spend time with friends so that your attention isn't always on each other. It can be too much. Go out and do something useful, be with friends, and then return. And sometimes things just kind of sort themselves out. I don’t want to oversimplify, but it’s a kind of overlooked dimension.

Matt Tully
Do you resonate with that, Emily?

Emily Van Dixhoorn
Yes, very much so.

Chad Van Dixhoorn
Especially with someone in the marriage overanalyzing.

Emily Van Dixhoorn
I don’t like to overanalyze. There’s a place for some conversation, but definitely let’s go have a good time together, let’s serve together, let’s do something. It’s like opening up the windows and getting some fresh air, and then get the momentum going in the right direction. That will address some issues. There are some issues that need a counseling office and a lot of time analyzing things, but not every issue.

Chad Van Dixhoorn
I think we’ve found, to our surprise, when we are struggling sometimes, we’d invite people over and have a meal with them, and by the end of that time, our issue just seemed small or insignificant. We were ready to forgive, and just that other-person focus was what we needed—not yet another sit down on the couch and Chad kind of painfully working through everything that was said and happened. But just something a little bit more organic and other-person oriented was helpful.

21:20 - How do I handle issues with in-laws?

Matt Tully
So helpful. Emily, how about in-laws? How should we think about and navigate that notoriously tricky topic?

Emily Van Dixhoorn
I’m thankful for my in-laws. We just have my mother-in-law with us today. Again, patience and prayer, and humility and thankfulness. You would not have your spouse if it was not for your in-laws, so be grateful. And then each relationship is unique. It depends on what the personality is, what you’re dealing with. But go into it with prayer. There is a key direction from the Lord, to know there’s leaving and cleaving. There is a place to say to your spouse—well, to communicate to your spouse—that your spouse comes first before your family of origin. And there may be a place to remind your spouse of how you feel if your spouse starts to treat his or her family of origin like that’s the priority. Then that’s worth a conversation.

22:28 - What role should repentance and forgiveness play in a marriage?

Matt Tully
I wonder if both of you could speak to this: What role should repentance and forgiveness play in a marriage? And then beyond the theoretical and Bible answer—the right answer—how do we actually do that in the day to day of our lives? I think that’s where people, many of us can, can struggle is we don’t know how to actually do that repentance and forgiveness. So, what would you say to that? Maybe, Chad, we could start with you.

Chad Van Dixhoorn
Well, I think I do most of the sinning, so it’s appropriate that you start with me. I think that the grace of repentance and the Holy Spirit’s work in leading us to repentance has just been so critical in its importance in our marriage. I find that there is a freedom in repenting before God and others. It’s a blessed reminder of who Christ is. If I’m remembering what he’s done for me and that my righteousness is found in him—as, by the way, is my wisdom and my dignity and everything else—then it enables me to repent. I’ve had to repent countless times with Emily. I think it has to be a daily basis where I try and repent particularly. I try and articulate what that must have felt like for her, and what I’m going to try and do in the future. Sometimes it’s just time to say, I’m really sorry or Would you please forgive me? But there’s also time to kind of spell that out. It’s sometimes not the best time to spell it out in depth as she’s falling to sleep. If she’s falling off to sleep, I try and keep it quick. But just the sensible rule that even if you think you’re 2% of the problem, own that 2% a hundred percent. And by the way, don’t mention that number to your spouse. That’s really helped us. And I’ve had to repent at a dinner table in front of all my friends. I often get into trouble when I’m attempting to be funny, and then I realize, Actually, that was a joke at someone else’s expense. Oh, that was a joke at Emily’s expense. And I’ll just have to say in front of everyone, By the way, what I said a minute ago wasn’t kind, it wasn’t right. It’s not fair. Emily, will you please forgive me? And she’s always done so, thankfully. I’ve had to repent a lot before we could start our family devotions in the evening. Kids, you need to hear this because you saw this. I just didn’t speak with the kind of respect and thoughtfulness that your mother deserves. Please don’t copy me. Emily, please forgive me. This is what I’m going to try and do next time.

Matt Tully
Emily, can you speak to what it’s like and how we can pursue a forgiving spirit, especially when we don’t want to? That often a challenging thing. Or maybe when someone isn’t even repentant, seemingly, and they haven’t asked for forgiveness, and it can be so easy, especially in a marriage and in that closeness, to then, before we know it, we are harboring a bitterness or a resentment. How do you guard against that?

Emily Van Dixhoorn
“Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.” I need a lot of forgiveness, so I better be willing to forgive. The Bible is clear. If I’m stingy with my forgiveness, there’s no place for that. It’s biblical. So, my forgiving Chad has much more to do with my relationship with the Lord than it has anything to do with Chad. It doesn’t even really matter what he did. What matters is my relationship with the Lord. And then it’s clear: I know I’ve got to forgive him. There’s just no other option. I must say: I can take forever to order something at a restaurant. A lot of things are not clear for me, but this is clear. I need to forgive.

Matt Tully
What do you do, Emily, when you know that intellectually, but maybe your feelings aren’t following that? Maybe you don’t feel like you can move past whatever this hurt might have been.

Emily Van Dixhoorn
I will at least say the words, and I will then carry through with some kind of duty, and let my heart catch up. I don’t think I’m being unauthentic by stepping forward in the right direction, starting with my words, and then taking some action in the direction I want to go with, and then giving my heart a little time for the feelings to catch up and get in order. And sometimes there might be a little friendly communication with him: I’m still getting over this. He knows that’s a little request to give me a little space. Give me a little space as I work this out.

Chad Van Dixhoorn
If anything, Emily’s understanding her kindness in that for the first ten or so years of our marriage, I would sometimes even have to ask for her help in asking forgiveness. I’d say, Emily, I know I’ve done something wrong. It ought to be clearer to me than it is. I actually need remedial help here. Help me to see what it is that I did, and help me to know even what I should say right now. And she was so kind as to actually say, Well, it’d be meaningful if you’d say this. Twenty years into the marriage, I shouldn’t have been doing that anymore, but for many years she was still helping me.

Emily Van Dixhoorn
I still help you out a little bit. I don’t do this to other people, but sometimes I say, It would be nice if you would clarify how you’re going to act instead. And he’s willing to do that. He takes that not as a nagging from me, but as a help.

Matt Tully
Chad, on the other side, what advice would you give to somebody, especially a husband listening, who maybe can sense that his wife is feeling hurt or feeling bothered by something, and he would say, I don’t think I did anything wrong. I don’t think the way I acted was wrong, but she’s clearly upset. How have you navigated that when one of the spouses would want an apology, and the other maybe feels like I didn’t do something?

Chad Van Dixhoorn
By the way, I’d say about 80% of the time that is where I am at the beginning. I think, Really? That was just righteous indignation. The angels are on my side here. But I have this sort of sneaking suspicion that’s not actually correct. And so it usually involves me going into another room and saying, Lord, help me to open my eyes. Help me to see any area where I could have done better. Even starting there: not just what did I do wrong, but what could I have done better? And for me, that’s the thin edge of the wedge that kind of gets the rest of the repentance kind of knocked in afterwards. Okay, I’m not saying I did anything wrong, but did I handle this situation? Did I speak as well as a Christian could have? Never is the answer, and then the Lord uses that to begin to soften my heart. I can at least apologize for that. And sometimes, even as I’m speaking or Emily graciously responds, my heart just begins to melt more and more. Te wedge illustration isn’t working anymore. Melting wedges don’t work, but you get the idea in spite of the botched metaphors.

30:30 - How do I pray for my spouse?

Matt Tully
Absolutely. Maybe one final question for both of you. What’s one specific thing that you’ve prayed for your spouse, for the other person, recently? Emily, maybe we can start with you.

Emily Van Dixhoorn
I have different specifics I pray for on different days. Monday, as him as a husband; Tuesday, for him as a father; Wednesday, as a writer and as a worker, anything related to work; Thursday, for his health; Friday, for his friendships; Saturday, for him as a steward of his gifts; and Sunday, as a child of God. So, different specifics come up in different areas.

Chad Van Dixhoorn
I’m humbled almost to the point of tears. I can barely speak. I’m so thankful for that. I pray that the Lord will help Emily, as a Christian woman, to love him more. I pray that he’ll help her, as a wife trapped in a difficult marriage, to be patient with her husband. I pray the Lord will give Emily wisdom as we parent children who get three years older every year. I pray that the Lord will help her to love worshiping him, and that he will help her, as someone who’s often given the opportunity to lead prayer meetings, Bible studies, a ladies’ conference or something like that, that she just has a very fertile mind and I pray the Lord would help her to use that to his glory.

Matt Tully
Well, thank you both, Chad and Emily, for sharing a little bit about your marriage and a little bit about how God has taught you and led you in that in answering these common questions that all of us, as married couples, sometimes have and struggle with. We appreciate it.

Chad Van Dixhoorn
Thank you, Matt.

Emily Van Dixhoorn
It’s been a pleasure.

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