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Podcast: The Fight against Porn Is a Fight for Justice (Ray Ortlund)

September 13, 2021 by: Crossway

This article is part of the The Crossway Podcast series.

Reclaim Dignity

Pastor Ray Ortlund explains how the truth that we are royalty created in God’s image for a great and noble purpose has the power to free us from the dehumanizing lies of the porn industry.

The Death of Porn

The Death of Porn

Ray Ortlund

The Death of Porn by Ray Ortlund is a series of personal letters written to men assaulted by the porn industry. Every man can experience his true royalty—not through self-help, but by believing the gospel. Pastor Ortlund paints the picture of a whole generation redefining their future with new dignity and confident purpose.

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Topics Addressed in This Interview:

00:55 - We Are Allies

Matt Tully
Ray, thank you so much for joining me today on The Crossway Podcast.

Ray Ortlund
I’m glad to be with you, Matt.

Matt Tully
Right at the beginning of your new book you write, “Thanks for picking up this book. I hope it helps. I hope it changes things. A lot of things.” I can imagine that a guy might be listening right now and thinking to himself, Yeah, right. I wish things could change, but I’ve read the books, I’ve gone to the seminars, I’ve listened to the sermons, I’ve tried meeting with an accountability partner—I’ve tried all of that stuff and it feels like nothing has helped. Nothing will change. We’re going to get into some of this stuff, but what would you say to that guy right here at the beginning of our conversation?

Ray Ortlund
I would say to that guy that everyone on the face of the earth understands exactly what he’s talking about. Jesus said, “He who sins is a slave of sin.” I understand that. One of the things I say early in the book is that I am a sexual sinner. I’m not looking at porn, I love my wife, I don’t have a girlfriend on the side; but I am a sexual sinner. Everybody above puberty is a sexual sinner, so we really are in this together. The guy who says that to me is speaking to a friend. I’m that guy’s ally. I understand what he’s talking about. He understands me. We are in this together. I wrote this book because I am so fed up with Christian men being scolded, shamed, pressured, cornered, belittled—as if that would help them and as if that would change them.

Matt Tully
A lot of people would say that that’s what they need. They need a kick in the pants and to be told, Grow up. Act like a man—a godly man. They would say the problem is that they haven’t been challenged to be mature and exercise self-control.

Ray Ortlund
Where does the Bible teach us pastors to challenge people? I understand there is some sense in which I can use the English word “challenge” legitimately as a pastor, but I’m thinking of Isaiah 40:1. It does not say, Challenge, challenge my people, says your God. It says, “Comfort, comfort my people . . .” I believe we don’t change until we feel understood, until the comforts of the gospel start trickling down into the deepest, darkest places inside us. Our inner reality is like a neighborhood, and there’s some really bad places in that neighborhood. Sometimes we go there, and it never works. It never helps us. But we keep going back there at times. The only difference between me and you, Matt, I don’t know how old you are—

Matt Tully
Thirty-three.

Ray Ortlund
Okay. I’m seventy-one. The only significant difference between us is that I’ve sinned a whole lot more than you have. I have been trying God’s patience since 1949, for crying out loud! And he has never forsaken me. He said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you” (Heb. 13:5). I wrote this book because I want more men to know and to feel that there is an alternative to what they’re stuck in. But they’re going to get into that alternative not by bucking up, but by getting with other men of God who are facing the same issues they’re facing and together going to a place of honesty, vulnerability, and transparency. I don’t use the word “accountability.” I don’t like that word because of the way I have heard some people use it: pushy, bossy, and coercive. I don’t like that. No one is helped that way. But transparency is different. Then we all share that together. I remember one evening in the men’s ministry at Immanuel Church years ago—and I don’t know how I had the nerve to do this and I’m not recommending it—that Tuesday evening with maybe thirty guys in the room, somehow I felt that we were at a threshold—the way so many guys are. So many guys are closer to a breakthrough than they think. Anyway, there we were. I said, Okay, guys. Let’s do this. Why don’t we break up in twos and turn to the guy next to you and tell him—disclose to him, trust him enough—to tell him the worst thing you’ve ever done. And then he will pray for you. Then, turn it around. He will own up to and disclose to you the worst thing he’s ever done, and you pray for him. Could that work, fellas? And they said sure, to my amazement.

Matt Tully
So there wasn’t this uncomfortable silence as you asked that?

Ray Ortlund
No. Of course, there is a backstory. We had taken a lot of incremental steps to get to that place.

Matt Tully
You weren’t just dropping this on the first guy’s gathering of the church.

Ray Ortlund
No. Again, to my amazement, they said, Cool. Good idea. So we did that. We walked in that evening as acquaintances, and we walked out that evening as friends. And we never went back. I’m wondering, what could God do with a whole generation of men? I wrote this for my sons’ generation. I wrote this for guys in their twenties and thirties. I feel like I owe those guys. My generation, in the late 1960s and early 1970s, we went crazy—we went insane—sexually. We handed a mess down to you guys. So, I owe you something better. And you guys can pass onto your children something better. We let you down. You don’t have to let your kids down. I want to help you with generational impact through this book. The first step is honesty with brothers in Christ whom we trust. We start to own up to, and talk about with transparency, what isn’t working in our lives, what isn’t going well, how we’re not even satisfying ourselves, much less pleasing the Lord.

08:03 - How Did We Get Here?

Matt Tully
How did we get here with that issue? As Christians, the gospel is foundational. None of us would deny that. The gospel very clearly teaches that we are broken, that we are sinful, that we can’t save ourselves. Fundamental is repentance and confession. And yet, it seems like that is not often characteristic of our experience of the church. We go to church, we get involved in different facets of church life and we feel the need to put up a facade, to keep those things hidden. What’s going on? How are we so misaligned with the reality of the gospel?

Ray Ortlund
That’s a great way to put it. Here’s my answer: I believe that gospel doctrine creates gospel culture. Take the doctrine of sin, for example. That should create a culture of honesty and transparency and humility—putting right out on the table our sins because Christ has paid for our sins. What’s happened in the last twenty years or so? I’m so grateful for the Lord’s work in our nation. We have Together for the Gospel, the Gospel Coalition, Acts29, and so forth. These are fantastic streams of blessing flowing into our nation. With this whole generation we’ve taken a step up in terms of theological understanding, theological articulation—we’re excited about doctrine. That is very positive. But we have not, along with that, grown with the gospel culture that those very doctrines are calculated to create. We’ve grown theologically by leaps and bounds; we have not grown relationally to the same extent. That’s our next step, Matt. What you’re talking about is common. We go into a church that loves the gospel, preaches the gospel, savors the gospel, sings the gospel; and in that environment we feel reluctant to talk about what is hard in our lives and how we’re not doing well. That’s crazy! I’m a man on a mission. I want to see that changed.

Matt Tully
Your church models that well. There’s a little creed—I don’t know exactly what you would call it—that you guys recite together as a church on a regular basis. Could you share that?

Ray Ortlund
The Immanuel mantra. We wouldn’t put it up at the level of a creed!

Matt Tully
That’s not the right word.

Ray Ortlund
The Immanuel mantra goes like this: 1) I’m a complete idiot. 2) My future is incredibly bright. 3) Anyone could get in on this.

Matt Tully
What’s behind that? There’s a certain familiar and non-intense feel to that, and I assume that’s intentional. You want it to not feel like this super heady, weighty type of thing to say. What was the goal behind that, and how did that even get formulated?

Ray Ortlund
I don’t really remember how it unfolded, but it just popped up along the way because in a theologically intentional church, it’s easy to miscommunicate to people when they come into that kind of church. It’s easy for them to feel like we’re bearing down on them and they better come up with the right answers.

Matt Tully
Right. They better get their doctrines precisely defined.

Ray Ortlund
So the Immanuel mantra is a way of not stepping on that landmine, not inadvertently communicating what we don’t intend. It’s a way of saying we take Jesus seriously and his gospel; we don’t take ourselves seriously. We’re not good at this and we wan to own that right up front. In fact, we start every service on Sunday with a call to worship that we stole from Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia. I found it on their website years ago.

Matt Tully
And you just copied it?

Ray Ortlund
Oh yeah. We pirated this. It’s very simple. I stand there (or whoever the pastor is), and here’s the first thing people encounter in a worship service at Immanuel Church: “To all who are weary and need rest, to all who mourn and long for comfort, to all who fail and desire strength, and to all who sin and need a Savior, this church opens wide her doors with a welcome from Jesus, the friend of sinners.” In Nashville, Tennessee where we are, there are remnants still of a Bible Belt mentality. People come into church expecting a pep talk, expecting a message of do better, try harder, pedal faster. So what we want to say from the moment we open our mouths is, This is not like that. We’re here to serve you. We’re here, by God’s grace, to re-oxygenate you. We’re here to lift you up. We are in this together. None of us is good at Christianity, so let’s go to a place of honesty, transparency, and vulnerability together and let’s discover together what Jesus can do for people like us.

14:02 - Dare to Believe You Are Royalty

Matt Tully
That kind of connects to another thing that you say in your book. It’s kind of a running theme that is pretty foundational for what you’re trying to say. What the book is actually aimed at doing is helping the readers finally dare to believe that they are true royalty. You talk about how men are royalty, women are royalty, and Jesus is royalty. Why is that royalty idea so important to this? Why is that so foundational?

Ray Ortlund
Because it’s literally foundational in the gospel and in the Bible. In Genesis 1, from the get-go, God looks us right in the eyes and he tells us, I created you in my image. Now, to be an image of God—to, so to speak, image God—means to represent him. He is the King; he created us in him image. Gerhard von Rad, in his commentary on Genesis, points out that in the ancient world the king over a vast and mighty empire would put up statues, or images of himself, in those parts of his empire that he didn’t as often visit to remind everybody that he was the king. That’s the background to Genesis 1 and our being created in the image of God. The word “image” is used elsewhere in the Old Testament for a statue. So, we’re here to be living, breathing emblems of the King of the universe. We are to think like him, love like him, be wise like him, express and bring his kingdom to bear in this world. He did not create us to gravel. He created us to stand tall with a spring in our step, a sparkle in our eye, steel in our spine, and to bring his glorious kingdom into this world that needs God. So, there is nothing about our existence that we have to settle for as second rate. That is not of God. There is nothing in Jesus we need to brace ourselves against or filter out or just accept. Everything about him that he brings to us is uplifting and dignifying and empowering. He gives us our lives back. He give us greatness of purpose. Almost nobody believes that, Matt! Sometimes I don’t believe it!

Matt Tully
The image of God is one of those things that, if you’ve been a Christian for a while, we check that box and we know that doctrine. But maybe we don’t always understand how it actually matters for how I live my life and how I think about myself.

Ray Ortlund
Exactly. That doctrine—the image of God—creates a culture of respect and honor and dignity among us, even in our failings and shortcomings. For example, Romans 12:10: “Outdo one another in showing honor.” Where does that come from? It comes from Romans 8: “them he glorified” (Rom. 8:30). The beginning of the gospel is our royalty in God’s image. The touchdown of the gospel is our glorification in resurrection royalty. That makes a difference right now in establishing among brothers in Christ, like us, who have problems, issues, and failings. Still, it establishes—and it demands—a culture of honor. Romans 12 says here is what that looks like: “Outdo one another in showing honor.” As far as I know, Matt, that’s the only competition called for in the Bible, and yet, everybody wins. If you and I were in a small group of men here’s how we would roll. There would be two things going on primarily: 1) We would confess our sins to one another. 2) We would outdo one another in showing honor. I really didn’t know how real this is and how life-giving this is and how re-oxygenating this is until I experienced it with guys. I just believe that if that goes viral in your generation, it will have an impact not only in your generation but into future generations as well. In this book, I’m not talking about tweaking this or modifying that, or a little touch up here and there. I’m talking about a paradigm shift where a whole generation of men deeply feel, I’ve got my life back! They’ve got energy that they didn’t know existed, they’ve got companionship and brotherhood they didn’t know was real, they are able to risk and have the courage for confession they’ve never dared before. And the Holy Spirit is in that with power.

19:41 - A Revolution against the Porn Industry

Matt Tully
You talk a lot about wanting to spark a movement, almost a revolution, among people in our country and around the world. At one point in the book you actually compare the fight against pornography in our world today to William Wilberforce in his fight against the slave trade in the eighteenth century. Is the issue of porn really on par with that example?

Ray Ortlund
Absolutely. I am so hacked off that online porn is so widely accepted as just the way it is and nothing around here ever changes. We don’t like it, but there it is. Well, in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries that’s exactly how so many people felt about racialized slavery. Nobody liked it, but so many people accepted it.

Matt Tully
And many people benefited from it.

Ray Ortlund
Huge economic benefits. There were strong incentives and well-positioned people to make sure nothing would ever change. And then some men of God said, By his grace, for his glory, this is going to change. Years ago I was so moved when I read a letter from John Wesley. It was the last letter he ever wrote. Two weeks later he died. In 1791 he wrote a letter to William Wilberforce, the young politician in Britain, and urged him to devote his life to bringing down the slave trade in the British Empire. He told him honestly that both powerful, well-positioned people and demonic forces will be against you, but God will be with you and you will prevail. Wilberforce received that and together with others in his circles, they devoted their lives to the effort of marginalizing, stigmatizing, and limiting the slave trade. And they won! It took years, but they won! Now today, slavery is unthinkable to us. Well, we need that same paradigm shift to occur now in our culture with regard to porn because it is slavery. It is oppression. Porn is a justice issue just as much as slavery. As men of God, we will never make peace with injustice. We will never participate in it, we will never support it, we will never look the other way. So, I’m calling your generation to come together and link arms to form a new movement for justice in this very delicate, personal area of our sexuality.

Matt Tully
What would you say to the person who questions whether or not it should be called a justice issue because they might say that unlike the slave trade of the eighteenth century, the people who participate in the porn industry are doing it willingly and maybe they’re even being paid. This is something that is a choice and that isn’t actually hurting anyone.

Ray Ortlund
I would say it simply isn’t true. My own eyes were opened when I had a significant conversation with a very brave friend of mine whom I quote in the book. She tells her story in the book. She was abused as a child, trafficked as a young woman, went into the sex industry, worked in the clubs and so forth. She explained to me what woman ever grows up thinking, I would love to give my prime years to being mistreated on porn sites and then viewed by millions of men around the world on their laptops who derive secret guilty pleasure from my abuse? Who ever signs up for that? It is not voluntary. Everything she said, everything going on behind the scenes—the porn industry, of course, wants to make it look like it’s just innocent fun. They have every reason to make it look that way. Tara pulls the curtain aside and helps us all see what’s really going on behind the scenes. Chapter 2 in the book, “She Is Royalty,” is, for me, the most powerful chapter in the book because it redignifies every woman with a glory that God has in fact put upon her and the porn industry strips that glory off of her—degrades her, treats her like trash. God is profoundly offended by that, and we need to step around and stand with the living God as advocates on behalf of women and make sure that that mistreatment stops, for crying out loud.

25:14 - Are Chivalry and Male Headship Part of the Problem?

Matt Tully
Zooming out a little bit beyond the issue of individualized use of pornography in our society, there is this broader conversation, and maybe a better word for it is even a reckoning in our culture today, related to the ways that men have often used their power to take advantage of, to mistreat, to abuse women. Some people, even some Christians, would seem to suggest that a contributing factor to that are some of these traditional ideas about masculinity. You mention chivalry and the idea of headship. It is said that those are actually part of the problem and that they’re streams that funnel into this abuse that men often perpetuate against women. You seem to say though that some of those “traditional” ideas—biblical ideas—about men’s unique role in all of this—to protect women, to be a noble influence in our society—are actually key to the solution. How would you respond to people who question that and think that those things are actually part of the problem?

Ray Ortlund
I would agree with them. But the caricature of manhood that they rightly object to is not taught in the Bible. If we want to know what a real man looks like, we look at Jesus. And everyone was safe in his presence. Matt, that’s our goal as men, that we would have such integrity, that we would be so deeply unselfish, that we would be so respectful and so considerate and so for others that everyone around us, especially the vulnerable, would be—and would feel—completely safe. That’s our goal. A distortion, a caricature of biblical manhood—I am the ally of anyone who opposes the distortion of that. I’m on their side. There is so much that’s got to be changed. There is nothing God has given us that we haven’t corrupted and distorted. We all need to go back to Jesus.

27:41 - Our Bodies and our Cultural Moment

Matt Tully
Coming back to the issue of porn in particular, you say that the battle that men—and increasingly, women—face when it comes to porn is not actually about porn or sex or will-power, but about hope. Unpack that.

Ray Ortlund
Our real problem is it’s not glandular. It’s not the testosterone flowing through us. It’s not our sexuality. I believe every man’s sexuality and every woman’s sexuality is magnificent. It is sacred. It is of God. It is inviolable. The problem is not our sexuality, but when we stop believing that God cares about us, that God is looking out for us, that God has our back, that God has a future for us better than anything we could cook up for ourselves. When we stop believing that and we feel like, I’ve got to make my own way. I have to force things to bring my way, that’s when we start stepping on one another, mistreating one another. That’s when we start looking at one another through a lens of cost-benefit calculation. Maybe, through that lens, a woman might be exploitable if I have sufficient incentive to go there. The whole thing is evil because we have forgotten God. When we see ourselves as created by God, loved by God, watched over moment by moment by God, we can finally calm down, relax, and start treating each other with respect, dignity, and consideration. Especially in this very delicate and very personal area of sexuality, our violations of one another are extremely painful. But if we would just back up and see everything as a God issue. My sexuality is a God issue. It’s not about sex. When my heart feels hopeful in God, my sexuality stops being predatory and starts becoming a little more Christlike and unselfish.

Matt Tully
You say at one point in the book, “Every time you log on to a porn site, what you’re really looking for is Jesus.” To some, that might sound almost blasphemous. They might wonder, What in the world does that mean? How is that true?

Ray Ortlund
Everything we most long for, in our deepest intentions, is found in Christ. John’s Gospel is very clear in chapter 1: life is in Christ. So, whether it’s sexual sin or any kind of compromise, betrayal, a crossing of the line—whatever it is that we’re looking for that we’re willing to sin to get—we’re reaching to grab something. We’re forcing our way through. We’re saying to God, Would you please look the other way for a few minutes? Whenever we do that, we’re actually turning away from the One who has everything we desire, and toward bitterness, disillusion, disappointment, and despair.

Matt Tully
In your experience in talking with guys and even assessing your own heart, what is it that guys are desiring when they look to porn that they actually can’t satisfy? What is that underlying desire that they have?

Ray Ortlund
I think we have so many reasons ranging from a temporary thrill to feeling like a man to some brief false comfort, or even a mere compulsion. Here’s the problem with defining it: it’s crazy.

Matt Tully
It doesn’t make sense.

Ray Ortlund
No, it doesn’t make sense. Crazy defies definition and understanding. There is an insanity in sexual sin. It cannot possibly work out. Why do we keep doing this?

32:33 - What about Insights from Science and Secular Culture?

Matt Tully
That raises another question I wanted to get into a little bit. As Christians, we have the Bible’s teaching on sexuality and what God designs for our sexuality. We have the Holy Spirit within us, empowering us for obedience. But even with those two things, as we’ve already established, many, many Christians struggle repeatedly with addiction on these fronts. One question is how much should we look to the insights of our culture’s understanding of things—the science of addiction, brain science, psychology—to understand the dynamics of the addictions that we face in this area? Should those insights from secular culture inform how Christians fight against and attack this sin?

Ray Ortlund
Short answer: yes. Longer answer: I am so thankful for the aspects of wisdom that are offered to us today that we didn’t have a generation ago, and we should thank the Lord for, in his providence, providing these insights and strategies.

Matt Tully
Do those complicate the issue for you? As you think as a pastor and try to think theologically about this, sometimes we can wonder, If this is something that is happening with the chemicals in my brain and the pathways in my brain, maybe it’s not as cut and dry a sin issue as I maybe thought it was.

Ray Ortlund
No. Because I can read the Bible. Jesus said, “Whoever looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matt. 5:28). I don’t know how it could be clearer. So, I’m thankful for the insights and the strategies that are being offered to us today in new ways. That’s all wonderful, but it’s not a game-changer. It doesn’t actually help us get free. That’s where the Bible addresses us at such a profound level that it speaks to every generation and in every century and in every culture. The Bible says in James 5:16, “Therefore”—now, how blunt is this? How practical and doable is this? It requires no scientific sophistication; it just requires honesty. James 5:16: “Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed.” Where are we going to get healing? Healing is more profound than insight. Healing is more profound than any strategy. How do we get healing? The same way sinful people have gotten healing since time immemorial: “Therefore, confess your sins”—not just to God—“to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed” (James 5:16).

Matt Tully
On the whole, do you think evangelical pastors teach about the issue of pornography enough in their churches?

Ray Ortlund
I’m not sure I would preach on it, but I would include it in my ministry paradigm in men’s groups. Probably not on a Sunday morning. Personally, I would feel like the ministry of the gospel itself was being hijacked by a sidebar issue, and there might be children in the congregation. How are they supposed to understand that? Should they even be made privy to that? But in men’s groups—Saturday morning men’s groups, weekday evening men’s groups, recovery groups, one-on-one discipleship, etc.—I would want the church to be honeycombed with small groups of men really pressing deeply into these very issues. That’s why I wrote the book. This is a field manual for men in one-on-one relationships and in small groups to go to a whole new place of honesty, vulnerability, transparency, healing, freedom, and power that they’ve never known before.

36:54 - Encouragement for Those Feeling Stuck and Hopeless

Matt Tully
In a couple of weeks we’re hoping to post another interview with you that features questions from pastors in particular on this issue where you can offer some insights into some practical things related to doing just that—leading churches, and leading their men in particular, through your book but also through this broader topic in a way that’s helpful to them. Maybe one last question before we go. What final word of encouragement would you offer to that guy who, as we established right at the beginning, is feeling stuck, who feels hopeless, and maybe even after this conversation feels like, That all sounds so good. I wish I could believe that. I just don’t know that I’m going to make any progress on this issue.

Ray Ortlund
Great question. Thanks for asking it. Here’s what I would say: I believe that Jesus loves us the most tenderly at the very place of our deepest betrayal. There is an accusing voice in my head that tells me he despises me at that very place, that I am such a loser and such a pathetic weakling. I will never change. Nothing will ever change. That voice is a lie. The truth is, that is the very place in my existence where the healer is the most near, the most ready, the most accessible. But I probably won’t experience that except through another brother to whom I confess my real sins and I pour it out. I put it all out there—the worst of it, right on the table—with a Christian brother, and I keep confessing it. We don’t overcome our sins by willpower; we confess our sins to death. If I’m living in isolation, Jesus will remain hypothetical. If I will go into brotherhood and confess my real sins and my most extreme betrayals, in a way I don’t understand, through my brother, the real Jesus who is actually there will start feeling real to me. And I will start feeling less despairing and more hopeful through confession to an actual brother. I hate confession.

Matt Tully
It’s not fun.

Ray Ortlund
It’s like dying. This false self that I have been projecting to all the guys around me that I wish were true, it dies. Bonhoeffer, in his book Life Together, says when a man confesses his realities to a Christian brother, if he’ll go on confessing like that, as a new MO for life, that man will never be alone again. He will never again be alone with his sin. Now his brother bears the burden of that sin with him. And that man will start to experience hope.

Matt Tully
Ray, thank you so much for taking the time today to talk with us about a very difficult issue, a very hard issue, but I think you’ve given us so much hope from the gospel.

Ray Ortlund
Thanks, Matt. It’s a privilege to be with you.

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