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Podcast: The State of Women’s Ministry in the US (Courtney Doctor and Joanna Kimbrel)

November 20, 2023 by: Crossway

This article is part of the The Crossway Podcast series.

Women’s Ministry and the Health of the Church

In this episode, Courtney Doctor and Joanna Kimbrel delve into the key questions and concerns that arise in women’s ministry, touching on practical issues like how to get started and how to encourage discipleship. They also explore the topic of women’s leadership and their role in churches, offering advice to pastors and other church leaders who are eager to support the women in their church.

Behold and Believe

Behold and Believe

Courtney Doctor, Joanna Kimbrel

This 7-week Bible study from the Gospel Coalition explores the question Who is Jesus? by walking through his 7 “I am” statements in the Gospel of John.

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Topics Addressed in This Interview:

01:18 - Common Questions about Women’s Ministry

Matt Tully
Courtney and Joanna, thank you so much for joining me on The Crossway Podcast.

Joanna Kimbrel
Thank you for having us.

Courtney Doctor
Thanks for having us.

Matt Tully
Courtney, when you talk with women in the church, what are the big issues that you most often get questions about? If you had to boil things down to just a handful of topics, what are those?

Courtney Doctor
I would say that most of the questions that come in are practical questions, asking things like, How do I set up a women’s ministry? How can I get women in my church to disciple each other? How does that happen? How do I get women to show up for Bible study and do their Bible study? So when the questions about women’s ministry come, a lot of them are just really practical questions. But I would say the other set of questions that get asked a lot are questions around leadership and where women fit in a complementarian church, where women fit and can serve, and how can there be space for women to advocate for other women—to care for other women in in the context of the broader leadership and the vision and mission of the church. So I do get a lot of questions about that and how to go about partnering with the pastors and the church leaders in the women’s ministry.

Matt Tully
Joanna, any other topics that come to mind when you think about the questions or the concerns that women tend to bring to you when it comes to women’s ministry?

Joanna Kimbrel
I would say in addition to these questions about women’s ministry itself, there are also the questions that the women who are coming to the women’s ministry are asking. I hear a lot of questions like, What does it look like to live faithfully? How do I interact with the culture around me in a way that is winsome and also biblical? There are a lot of questions about mental health, about things like gender and sexuality, questions about how to engage in spiritual disciplines. What does it look like to pray? How can I approach Scripture when I don’t know how, or when I’m in a spiritually dry season? And so these questions aren’t so much about women’s ministry but about the women who are participating in women’s ministry.

03:36 - Entering into Women’s Ministry

Matt Tully
So you’ve both been involved in women’s ministry in different capacities for a long time. I wonder if you could just give us a summary of what that’s looked like for each of you. Courtney, let’s start with you. What has it looked like for you over the years?

Courtney Doctor
My summary is going to be a little longer than Joanna’s probably, just based on years in it. I really didn’t come to know the Lord until my early twenties, and so my first experience in women’s ministry was just being a participant and benefiting from it. It was a space that the Lord really used to grow me and to call me into deeper relationship with himself. And so just as a participant first, but then I would say that quickly turned into something I wanted to invest in and help other women experience what I had experienced.

Matt Tully
Do you remember the first lady in your church or whatever context this was, was there someone who had that influence on you and you looked at them and you said, I think I want to do that. I want to give my life to that?

Courtney Doctor
What a great question. I can, actually. Do you want an actual name?

Matt Tully
If you want to share it, yeah.

Courtney Doctor
Jo Coltrain. I think she still does women’s ministry at First Evangelical Free Churh in Wichita, Kansas. She was a BSF teaching leader, and just her diligence in showing up every week to teach the word and just her faithful discipleship even from a little bit of a distance. And she’s continued to encourage. I’ll get an email or a Facebook message, just encouraging me in what I’m doing. So she’s remained; that faithful presence has remained. But it matters. That life-on-life embodied gospel presence really matters.

Matt Tully
So in your twenties, it sounds like you were getting exposed to this. What was next?

Courtney Doctor
I wanted to learn how to be a small group leader, and that then turned into there was a large women’s Bible study that I got to participate in the teaching and the leadership of, and then I helped for years just as a lay leader in women’s ministry, choosing curriculum and teaching the weekly Bible study and talking about how to create and implement discipleship programming. And I just loved that. And then I went to seminary, and then I went on staff at a church as the director of women’s ministry, and really just even the experience of being a lay leader in that and then being on staff was really fantastic and really just something that, again, we love the local church. And so getting called out of that to work at TGC and the women’s initiatives, I thought, Oh, I don’t want to be separated from the local church. But the reality is that TGC exists to equip the women in the local church and to resource them in the local church. And so I do still have the local church in sight in all that we do.

Matt Tully
How about you, Joanna? What has your journey in women’s ministry looked like over the years?

Joanna Kimbrel
When you asked Courtney about what was that catalyst, it made me start thinking that I think it was in high school when just not so much towards women’s ministry specifically, but my love for the word of God and the way that the community of the church gathers around the word of God was really just kind of sparked when I was in high school. I went to a private Christian high school. I remember taking a theology class, which I realize that’s quite an odd thing to have a theology class in high school, but the Lord used that class and that experience to just give me this love for his word and this desire to share with other people. And even some of my high school teachers would come to me and say, Hey, I think you should think about teaching. And even just people calling out what I later learned was a gifting that God had given me, that kind of set me in that direction to start to look that way. But as far as women’s ministry, I also started out as a participant benefiting from women’s Bible studies and just the community of my local church. And the ways that I’ve served in women’s ministry over the years has been in a volunteer capacity. So I currently serve on my church’s women’s teaching team. I help teach some of the Bible studies and have contributed to some different curriculum. Most recently, I was able to do some training for some of our new teachers in the women’s ministry. So it’s been really amazing to see so many women excited about God’s word and wanting to share that with the other women in our church as well. And then now at TGC, I work with Courtney as a coordinator for women’s initiatives. So we get to help equip churches all around the world.

Matt Tully
That’s so wonderful. I love hearing those stories of when people oftentimes earlier in their lives catch a vision for life as a Christian, for studying the Bible, for theology. And it always strikes me that so often it seems like, even for people who grew up in a Christian home with solid parents who discipled them in different ways, it’s amazing how often it’s those other older believers, who aren’t their parents, who nevertheless poured into them and discipled them and modeled, perhaps, even spiritual disciplines. Those people can sometimes have the biggest influence on our lives. Have you found that to be the case even in your own ministries?

Joanna Kimbrel
Yeah, absolutely. I would say that those intentional relationships where someone who is further along in the faith has stepped alongside of me and encouraged me have been some of the sweetest relationships that I’ve had, and have also shown me the heart of Christ for me and for the church. There’s a woman right now, since we’re saying names, her name is Robin Lyerly and she is a woman in my church who also teaches on our women’s teaching team and has a very different teaching style than I do. She has a very different personality than I do, and the relationship that we have is such a gift to me because I’ve learned so much from her. She’s texted me multiple times today saying, “I’m praying for you as you go into this. I’m praying for you as you go into that.” And that gift is a reminder, even when sometimes church things are hard, it’s a reminder that this is what the body of Christ does. We come alongside each other and we encourage and we push each other to continue to grow in the faith. And so that’s definitely been true for me.

Matt Tully
Courtney, you mentioned a minute ago that you worked on an MDiv from Covenant Seminary, and you finished that about ten years ago. And that’s a degree that’s most often associated with pastoral ministry and people who are going to go into the pastorate. As a complementarian, how did you think about pursuing that degree? And some people might kind of wonder why you would spend all that time and energy and hard work on an MDiv. How did you view that work as part of your ministry?

Courtney Doctor
When we first started, and I say “we” because my husband and I went together to seminary in our forties. At first, I was signing up for a different degree, and it was actually our pastor at the time that said, “This is the degree that will help equip you the most for teaching. It’s the degree that’s designed, because of the original languages and because of the work that you end up then doing with the original languages in the different courses, it is the degree that’s going to equip you. I really think you need to consider doing the MDiv.” And it took that encouragement from that pastor for me to have the confidence to say, “Yeah, I think this is the one I want to do.” So that was how it came to be. I had a friend, a woman, who had done an MDiv maybe a decade before me, and she said that when she was asked that question, one of her answers has become, “Who do you want teaching the women in your church?” Not that you need a seminary degree to teach, but somebody who’s taken the time to be theologically educated, whether it’s informally or formally theologically educated, how you go about that, that’s who we want to be raising up to teach the word in gender-specific learning spaces.

Matt Tully
I love how that decision does so perfectly highlight the value and the importance of that ministry work of teaching the word to women in the church. And you as well, Joanna, you’re currently working on and almost finished with, as you mentioned earlier today, almost finished with a master’s of arts in theological studies. What led you to decide to do that? And what’s that been like for you doing that over the last few years?

Joanna Kimbrel
I mentioned that high school classroom when I just realized how much I love to learn about Scripture and to learn about God. I think I had this moment where I thought, because I was kind of a rule follower as a kid, I thought that I had all the answers about God and I kind of knew everything that there was to know. We can laugh at that now because that was so wrong, but I knew from that moment that I wanted to continue to learn more. And as I started to receive encouragement to consider teaching, and people who helped me learn how to teach Scripture, I knew that I wanted to be further equipped to do that well. And so not only in order to teach others, but for my own edification, and just for various roles in which I might serve in my local church, it’s really been that it just benefits every part of my life kind of experience. There’s been so much personal growth, and even the friendships and the discipleship relationships I’m a part of, it’s been so beneficial. I know I told you earlier that for me this has been a multiple-year endeavor with lots of time off and on. But it’s been kind of sweet to take one class at a time and to really be able to marinate in that and really to be able to apply that information in real time. That’s been a real gift. And the further along I get into the degree, the more I realize how much more I still have to learn, which is an exciting thing, in my opinion.

Matt Tully
Absolutely.

Courtney Doctor
That’s how I ended seminary, thinking all I’ve really learned is how much I still have to learn, how far I have to go!

Matt Tully
It’s exciting! It’s a little humbling, but it’s very exciting too.

Courtney Doctor
True.

13:40 - Women’s Ministry in the US Today Is . . .

Matt Tully
Courtney, I wonder if you can fill in the blank with this sentence: “Women’s ministry in the US today is . . . ”

Courtney Doctor
Vital. It is vital for so many reasons. I think that part of what we’ve just been talking about, that there is something that happens when—and it’s usually a younger woman and an older woman—she sees something in that woman’s life, because you can identify with that. You can think, I could know the word like that. That same word could cultivate that type of godliness in my life. And so you see that when you see it in someone who’s like you. So with a gender-specific learning space, the research will say and show us that women are more—not to a person but as a broad brush—women are more likely to raise their hand, to enter a discussion, to answer a question when they are in a group of women versus a mixed gender space. And so that participation in the conversation, there’s growth that happens there. There’s care that can happen one to another that’s different because maybe the women get what it’s like to try to balance taking the work and kids and family and just everything that might be going on. In gender-specific learning spaces, I think that we allow women to care for each other, to advocate for each other, to come alongside each other, to disciple each other, and it’s just different then. I would never say that we only need gender-specific learning spaces. I would never say that. We need our brothers and fathers and sons in the same way that our brothers and fathers and sons need their spiritual mothers and daughters and sisters desperately. And so it’s not the only place, but I think it’s a really vital place that we do guard and protect and continue to invest in. And then I would say the second part of that, if it’s women’s ministry—the women’s part is what I was just talking about—the ministry part of it is that it’s not just a bunch of women getting together for coffee. It’s ministry. It is word-based and gospel-centered. It is women pointing women to Christ and to the word and how the gospel impacts what they’re doing as a gendered human being. And so I think that those two things are just vital.

Matt Tully
Joanna, how would you summarize how things have changed when it comes to women’s ministry in recent years? Do you have any thoughts on a trajectory that might be there?

Joanna Kimbrel
I think one thing that I’ve noticed is a resurgence of a focus on biblical literacy for women that kind of ebbs and flows over time, but we see so many studies and teachers who are focused on equipping women to be able to read their Bibles for themselves and to know what’s in there, to know the story of Scripture. And that’s a really exciting thing because I know that when I first began to see that and learn that, it made me want to go back to the word. And it made it to where I felt like this was something that wasn’t just something I had to do but something that is so-life giving and really exciting to be able to read God’s word. I think there’s been an increase in a desire for authenticity and transparency—actually walking alongside one another and not just coming and putting on your best face but actually sharing sin struggles and really challenging circumstances, and actually bearing one another’s burdens and walking alongside each other in a way that is so necessary. And sometimes we can feel as if, Oh, that’s not welcome here. But I think that there’s a push towards sharing what you’re experiencing and actually helping each other in the midst of that. I think along with that, a lot of times women’s ministry has shifted towards—and this is another positive thing—has shifted more towards being focused around Scripture and being focused around prayer, these essentials of the Christian faith, instead of just social spaces. And so that growth is able to happen to a greater degree. So that’s kind of the positive side. I would say if there are some maybe dangers that I’ve seen, social media is huge right now. Here we are recording a podcast, so we’re very much aware of this, that there is so much amazing content that’s available virtually, digitally. But along with that, there can be the temptation to have virtual discipleship, where you are not sitting at a table with someone who knows you and knows your story and knows your family and knows your struggles, but someone who really doesn’t know all that, and then thinking that, Oh, well, that person can still speak into my life and speak into my experience. And the amount that we can speak into someone else’s life who we don’t know is very limited. And if that is the only form of discipleship that we’re seeking, there’s a lot of room for error there. And so that’s not to say that these resources aren’t helpful. I think it’s amazing that we have so many resources just available to us right at our fingertips. But the embodied church, the in-person, one-on-one relationships are vital, and we can’t lose those.

Matt Tully
And it seems to me, from my vantage point, that we’re kind of living through an unprecedented season of fruitfulness when it comes to women’s Bible study. Not just as a category or a concept, but even in terms of the resources that are coming out and the Bible teachers that we have today who are just committing themselves, as both of you have in different ways, to helping women to read and understand the Bible and encouraging that in the context of the church. And you two have a new Bible study coming out with Crossway called Behold and Believe. It’s a study where you’re going through all of the “I Am” statements in the Gospel of John that Jesus says. But there are so many other wonderful resources that come out all the time in our circles it seems. Courtney, can you offer any explanation or commentary on why we’re in this season of flourishing and of fruitfulness on this front? Obviously, the Lord is sovereign and he’s at work and we want to give all gratitude to him for these things. But as you think about just the last couple decades or so, is there something behind the season that we’re in today?

Courtney Doctor
I do think that, obviously, it is the Lord sending his Spirit, and seasons come and go. He sets up times and seasons. He is sovereign over all of it, and so he is at work in his church. And it’s certainly not the first time, right? We look back over the history of the church, and there have been multiple times where—for both men and women, but we see specifically what we’re talking about is women having this desire for biblical literacy—and we’ve certainly seen that in the past. I think that there is a resurgence, and I think part of it is due to the fact that more and more women are becoming theologically trained, formally and informally. And I think that’s really important to say because there’s not just one way to get theologically educated. But as that happens, they’re writing studies and they’re writing books that are just more deeply grounded in the word. The focus is more the Lord and what he’s doing and the gospel and how Christ accomplished it than maybe what’s going on in our day-to-day life. And so as that happens, women desire because they taste the deeper things of the Lord. The word tells us "taste and see that the Lord is good," and they do, and they want more of it. It actually causes us to hunger for more and more of his word, which is exactly what God promised when he promised the new covenant. In Ezekiel when he said, I’m going to give them a new heart and take out their heart of stone. I’m going to give them a heart of flesh. And when I do that, I’m going to cause them to walk in my ways. And so I think he is causing this, and then he’s raising up women to speak into it as he’s causing other women to hunger more deeply for the things of the Lord.

Matt Tully
These are a lot of really positive things that we’re seeing today in women’s ministry broadly. Joanna, are there any weaknesses that you still see? Or are there areas that, as you’ve thought about it, you would say, I would love to see the church in America continue to grow in this regard when it comes to women and women’s ministry?

Joanna Kimbrel
One thing I think in our present day is we’re used to having things really quickly, and we’re ready for the next new thing, and we’re moving on without settling in. And I think whether it’s about the Bible studies that we’re doing or the relationships that we are seeking in women’s ministry, there can be the temptation to move quickly to the next thing, to expect quick transformation instead of settling in and living differently as a result of the word that we have experienced. It doesn’t matter how incredibly written a resource is; you can go through the motions, and you can kind of move on to the next one after that. And it’s just so typical, and that’s not to say it applies to everyone, but it is somewhat typical to want things quickly and to want things now. We talked about social media. We have everything at our fingertips with our phones. But growth is not typically fast. It is usually slow. It usually is not very comfortable either, and we can be quick to move past discomfort and to move past patience and waiting. And I think that’s one of the reasons why we need those relationships we were talking about, those mentorship type relationships where someone is able to see from the outside what we might not even see about ourselves and to say, Hey, we need to settle in here. Have you really dealt with this thing? What would it mean for this passage of Scripture we just read together to change the way that you walk out of this room now?

Matt Tully
That level of relationship, that level of transparency and comfort with another person can be really hard sometimes. It can be kind of scary to have that. What would you say to the lady listening right now who’s saying, I would love that, but when I think about my women’s ministry at my church—the women involved in it, the way the ministry is set up, the way the Bible study feels and goes—I don’t feel like I have that. I feel like it’s just focused on teaching, and I go and I learn some stuff about the Bible, but I don’t feel like there’s somebody that I can really open up to like that with?

Joanna Kimbrel
I would say make the uncomfortable step to find the woman who’s older in the faith and to ask her. And it might not always happen organically. The woman I mentioned earlier, I went to her and I said, Robin, can you start meeting with me once a week? Because I have some stuff that I don’t want to deal with, but I need to. And sometimes you have to make that first step. I think that if there’s a fear of sharing those things, of being vulnerable, the thing that has helped me the most in that is to remember that the Lord knows my entire heart, and that if I am in Christ, that is all the approval that I need. And so I am so free to share my sin and I am so free to share my struggles because it’s already been paid for. There is nothing that I have to be afraid of sharing. Might I get hurt? Yes, but Christ is with me no matter what. He has accepted me. He has covered my sin. He has forgiven me. So I have so much freedom to share my struggles. And I think that when we can be the one to do that, even if no one else is. That makes space for others to then feel free to share their struggles. Because I can tell Courtney about a sin issue that I have in my life, and I know that she’s not going to look down on me and think, Oh, Joanna’s not who I thought she was. But she’s going to say, I get it. And even if it’s not the same sin struggle, she’s still going to say, I get it. And we are both in Christ, and that’s what matters.

Matt Tully
If that’s something that maybe the younger Christian might need to do and might need to be willing to kind of go out on a limb and ask somebody for help, Courtney, what would you say to the more mature Christian listening who might also, in a different way, feel intimidated by the idea of opening themselves up. They think they should be further along than maybe they are. What would you say to that person?

Courtney Doctor
I say it’s one of the most important things that you will ever do. I might be talking to a thirty-year-old who I’m encouraging to disciple an eighteen-year-old, or a sixty-year-old I’m encouraging to disciple a forty-year-old. It doesn’t matter. There’s very little time in your adult life that you can’t be the older one because there are always younger women coming up behind us. And so I would say to create space and margin in your life, and then intentionally invest that space and margin in other people. And the confidence comes from the exact same thing that Joanna was saying. The confidence to be the older woman to walk with somebody comes from the fact that I am covered in Christ. I am united to him. Nothing can change it. My sins are covered. And so I don’t have to—in any way, shape, or form—pretend that I have it all together. But I can say, Oh, me too because I have experienced it too. And so I would say to the older woman who feels that she needs to have it all together, remind yourself of the gospel truth that you don’t, and none of us do. And so we do enter into relationships as, to use the very popular and beautiful subtitle, we are all sufferers and sinners. And so where do we find comfort in Christ as fellow sufferers and sinners?

27:50 - Mistakes Church Leaders Make Concerning Women’s Ministry

Matt Tully
What’s the biggest mistake, in your opinion, that pastors and elders and other church leaders tend to make when it comes to thinking about women’s ministry in their church? And maybe this is an unintentional mistake. Maybe they have the best of intentions. They really want to support their church’s women’s ministry. But what do you see as maybe some mistakes they might make?

Courtney Doctor
They silo it and they keep it off to the side and look over and think, Well, they’re busy. They’re happy. They seem to be doing stuff. And so I don’t need to think much about that. That’s women’s ministry, and we have now either hired or tasked somebody to be in charge of that. And so it’s sort of this thing that’s put in the corner, even though it might be thriving and vibrant and one of the richest ministries going on in the church. But I would say the better model is integrating women’s ministry into the life of the church and bringing this collaborative approach where you align the initiatives of the women’s ministry with the strategic initiatives of the church, and the pastor and leaders are talking to the women’s ministry leaders about ways they can keep those things aligned. And then investment in the women’s ministry. I’ve seen some really beautiful things over the years. I’ve seen pastors who come in at least maybe the first and the last of the Bible studies and pray for the women or teach a lesson or invest in some way. A lot of times when I go speak at a church, the pastor will come in and start the conference. But I think one of the most beautiful things that I’ve ever seen is a pastor who sat through the entire women’s retreat. And took notes. He was so kind. He was so encouraging.

Matt Tully
So he wasn’t up front leading the thing.

Courtney Doctor
Oh no, he came as a participant. And he wasn’t there judging or critiquing or grading me either. He came up with lots of words of encouragement, some questions that were just humble and kind. And I told him, at that retreat, I said, What you have just modeled for your women, they see a man who is willing to care about what the women are learning and be willing to learn in that environment. It’s not a worship service, so to learn from a woman and have conversations about it, it was just really a beautiful thing. So invest in it, be involved, and then invite women to speak into how they see how a women’s ministry can be aligned and integrated into the life at the church.

Matt Tully
How have you seen that last bit happen in your church or in churches you’ve been a part of? What might it look like for an elder or a pastor who does want to incorporate the voices of women leaders in his church who know God’s word, who know theology? He wants to incorporate their voices, and yet do it in a way that observes and maintains Scripture’s teaching on men and women’s roles in the church.

Courtney Doctor
I’ve seen a lot of good conversations happen—intentional, question asking. I’ve had elders sit in my office before and ask questions about what I saw even where there maybe was disengagement with the women in the church. And so asking questions about that, and then where it’s appropriate, inviting them into the conversations to see how the church can move forward. And then in a broader sense, inviting women into conversations and at tables that are not specifically about women’s ministry, because the life of the church and the ministry of the church impacts all of the people in it, of which usually over fifty percent are women. And so I’ve had pastors who have had sermon prep teams that include men and women, or sermon review teams that have men and women. So women can say, You know, there was just a lot of football analogy or When you said that or when you handled the passage in that way, this is what it felt like as a woman. And so just being able to speak into some of those things. And so the more I see men that are leading our churches, leaning on and inviting their sisters in Christ into their leadership without giving it away but inviting them to speak into it, I think we’re functioning as the fully functioning church then. We’re functioning as true complementarians that understand that we actually really need each other. It is not good that man should be alone. And so inviting women into that, saying, I actually need you as my mother, my sister, my daughter in the faith. I need your perspective. I need your voice.

Matt Tully
It strikes me that that nuanced, true living out of what Scripture teaches on men and women, it requires more wisdom and care than probably either extreme—either shutting women out completely and not listening to them, or going to the other end and just saying there’s no difference and men and women are equal and the same, in terms of their roles in the church. The middle road is actually the harder road to navigate. Joanna, a minute ago Courtney mentioned that one of her encouragements for pastors is to not silo off their women’s ministry and remain unengaged from it. I wonder though, are there some women’s ministry leaders listening right now who might say, Hold on, hold on. If I’m being honest, I like that it’s siloed off because the last time my pastor got involved he started to meddle and he kind of messed things up and made my life a lot harder. He doesn’t really understand. He doesn’t listen well. If you could you just let me do my thing, we’re going to thrive over here. What would you say to that woman?

Joanna Kimbrel
I would say you may be thriving over here, but a healthy women’s ministry is not going to just impact the women, but it’s going to have an impact on the church as a whole. And so that might be challenging, in order to have those conversations. And yes, sometimes there might be some ways that things are done that wouldn’t be what you would love. But I think that if we can go to the pastor or the leadership in the church and say, What would it look like for the women’s ministry to align with the vision of the church and with the goals and the initiatives of the church? That is an opportunity to open up that conversation so that this ministry is also serving the church as a whole, and so that the leadership of the church, who might have wanted to silo it off, then sees the value of this integration with the whole church.

Matt Tully
Courtney, do you have anything to add to that?

Courtney Doctor
No, I really like that, and I was just thinking about some practical examples of ways of inviting church leaders into what’s happening in the women’s ministry. There were a couple years where the senior pastor and I talked about how his sermon series and what the women were studying in Bible study could align. And so one year he preached through Ezekiel, and so we just racked our brains, What can we do? What can we do? Well, I ended up doing a Bible study on Joshua, so it was where the people came into the land and then when the people went out of the land. And it was just able to make those connections for women. Or one season he preached through James, and so we studied Proverbs, just looking at New Testament wisdom literature and Old Testament wisdom literature. And so those conversations where, like you said, Joanna, you invite people into the conversation and say, How can I go about this? What are some ways that we can collaborate and integrate so that we’re not overdoing it by ourselves? Because you’re right, Matt, it’s not just church leadership that can silo women’s ministry; women’s ministry can silo itself. And that’s a warning sign, for all the reasons Joanna said.

35:12 - Encouragement for Spiritual Mothers

Matt Tully
Maybe as a final question for both of you. Joanna, we can start with you. I wonder if you can speak to moms for a moment. Whether it’s biological mothers or adoptive mothers, or even spiritual mothers, any woman who is right now investing in the spiritual growth of the next generation. We’ve talked a lot about the importance of this mentorship type of work that we all do in different ways. But as you think about that labor, what reminder or encouragement would you offer to the woman listening right now?

Joanna Kimbrel
I think I would offer the encouragement that God uses the small and often unseen, maybe what feels like unappreciated things, for big purposes in his kingdom. Sometimes the work of that mentorship relationship, or, for me right now, the work of trying to disciple a six-year-old and a three-year-old (and the five-month-old isn’t talking yet, but we will get there soon). It can feel almost futile sometimes. It can feel exhausting and draining and sometimes small. But the Lord says that his kingdom is like a mustard seed that grows into a great tree. It is these small things that he uses to bear fruit. So don’t grow weary in doing good. Our measure of success is not what the world says our measure of success is. Faithfulness to walk alongside those who are younger, whether that’s years or spiritually younger, is a work that we are called to and that God will produce good fruit from that.

Matt Tully
Courtney, what would you add?

Courtney Doctor
I love that, Joanna. I think that you just hit the nail on the head. I think it’s one of the most vital things we can do. And even as we look back through Scripture, it’s exactly what we see. It’s Moses and Joshua, it’s Jesus and twelve, it’s Paul and Timothy and Titus. I’m writing a Bible study right now with a younger woman on the book of Titus, and we just keep reflecting on Paul and Titus’s relationship and how that idea that one person invested in the life of another to make sure that the gospel message, which had been entrusted to that person, was then entrusted to the next. It is what we’re called to do. It is the life of following Christ—“Go and make disciples”—and that does happen more in the quiet, mundane moments of the day. It’s the kitchen counter. It’s, Come, let’s just talk about your life and how the gospel informs what you’re going through while I am chopping brussel sprouts—or whatever it is! It’s just that invitation into real life so that you really know each other and you’re really walking with each other. But I would just, again, say that I think it’s where you see fruit. We certainly can attest to women who have poured into us and the fruit that’s been born and the fruit that’s born in my life as I continue to invest in others. It’s not a one way street. The fruit goes both ways. The wisdom goes both ways. It’s a vibrant relationship. It’s not a “let me tell you” it’s a “let’s learn together.” And so I would just say that, again, create and invest that margin in your life in the lives of the women around you.

Matt Tully
Courtney and Joanna, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today and reflect on women’s ministry and Bible study and how all women and men can do this and invest in the next generation in such an important way. We appreciate it.

Courtney Doctor
Thanks, Matt.

Joanna Kimbrel
Thank you so much.

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