Podcast: There’s Good News at Rock Bottom (Ray Ortlund)

March 24, 2025 by: Crossway

This article is part of the The Crossway Podcast series.

There Is No Rock Bottom Too Deep for Jesus

In this episode, Ray Ortlund talks through what it means when God says he dwells not only in the high and holy place but also way down low with those at rock bottom. Ray shares how even in betrayal, loneliness, feeling trapped in sin, or death, God is waiting there with open arms.

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Good News at Rock Bottom

Good News at Rock Bottom

Ray Ortlund

With wisdom from Isaiah 57:15, Good News at Rock Bottom helps readers discover Jesus in the hard experiences of life, offering hope to anyone walking through a season of deep sorrow.

Topics Addressed in This Interview:

00:44 - Christ Meets Us in Our Lowest Points

Matt Tully
Ray, thanks so much for joining me again on The Crossway Podcast.

Ray Ortlund
Thank you, Matt. It’s a privilege to be with you.

Matt Tully
Ray, you write in this new book that you’ve written, a book that, as the title suggests, is trying to meet people when they’re at their lowest, when their life has taken a turn that has maybe caught them by surprise and they just feel like they are at their wits end. And you write in the book that there are many ways for us in our lives to actually hit rock bottom. And I wonder if you could just start us off by telling us what that was like for you. Have you ever hit rock bottom? What did that look like?

Ray Ortlund
I think it’s inevitable. Sooner or later, something really bad comes and finds us. For me, it’s hard to talk about it, Matt, because it remains unresolved, and it’s still heartbreaking, and I don’t want to embarrass anybody. But I was among people who made promises and didn’t keep their promises. So I put my trust in their pledges and assurances. I think I should have done that, as I stand before the Lord, but they didn’t keep their end of the bargain, and it all fell apart, and it was very costly. And it shook me to my core. My parents and my Sunday school teachers and so forth, from the beginning of my life, taught me God loves you. And what then happened in that unfortunate experience was done in the name of Christ. So I actually had the terrifying thought, Have I been wrong all these years? Maybe the truth of my existence is that God hates my guts. That would explain everything. It would make sense. Now, I figured out soon enough that I was right the first time. God does love me. But then I had to go back and rebuild everything from the very deepest foundations. I couldn’t go back to my Christianity, as I had navigated it and understood it prior to that heartache, and just sort of tweak that, upgrade that, improve that. It was too shocking. It was too devastating. I had to rethink from the very deepest foundations. And that was a major turnaround in my life. It was the beginning of my real ministry and the beginning of a profound happiness that I didn’t experience prior to that. So I am living proof, Matt, that the steadfast love of the Lord endures forever.

Matt Tully
It is just amazing. You hear anyone who’s been through profound suffering of some kind will kind of say the same thing, that there’s this clarity that can come. There’s a focus and even a recognition that things that maybe you thought were okay, things that seemed fine or healthy, maybe weren’t as healthy as you once believed they were. Why is it that suffering and pain—whether it’s the pain of betrayal, like maybe what you were talking about, or sickness, or some other just hardship that comes at us—why does that tend to have such a clarifying power in our lives?

Ray Ortlund
That’s a profound question, Matt. I wish I had a better answer for you, but let me just take a stab at it. I think we launch into life with the assumption that what we’re going to do is accumulate more and more. And I don’t mean just money and wealth and things, but we’re going to, as we go through life, accumulate more credibility and more assurance and more confidence and more skills and so forth. And we don’t realize that we don’t really get traction for the great things in life by gaining more and more, but we get traction by losing more and more. And we don’t go there until we’re forced to by circumstances, when we’re forced into shedding assumptions, beliefs, expectations, and so forth that have just seemed obvious our whole lives. When we finally let go of that and lose it, then we have that significant aha moment when the living Christ becomes more real—existentially real—than ever before. And that really is the point. It’s not a philosophical question. It’s not even a psychological question. It’s a matter of suffering the loss of all things that I may gain Christ (Phil. 3).

Matt Tully
You write in the book that there’s no rock bottom that’s too deep for Jesus. And that’s the main message, essentially, of the book is (spoiler alert) Jesus is there when we hit rock bottom, and that’s where he does his best work for us. But I could imagine somebody listening to that comment, listening to what you’ve said even thus far, and to those of us who have been Christians for a long time, who have been in the church maybe all our lives, who have walked with the Lord, a statement like that can just kind of sound a little trite. It can sound a little cliched. Of course Jesus meets us there. We’ve heard that. And it can be, if we’re honest with ourselves, it can be something that in the abstract doesn’t maybe sound all that comforting. It doesn’t seem that out of the ordinary. It just seems familiar. So, again, is that something that you would you say you’ve come to understand in a deeper way? You always would have said that Christ meets us in our lowest points, but is there something about going through it that you think has helped you to see that more clearly or more vibrantly?

Ray Ortlund
Didn’t C. S. Lewis say that pain is God’s megaphone to a deaf world? That’s true for me, Matt. I have loved the Lord as long as I can remember. That’s a huge blessing. I am not disparaging that at all. I’m not taking anything away from his care for me all those many years growing up. But the other night, Jani and I were watching Father of the Bride. Do you know that movie?

Matt Tully
Oh yeah. Classic.

Ray Ortlund
The home where that movie is filmed was my neighborhood in California. That home was about three blocks away from our place, and so the street that you see there, I walked that street every day to school. I grew up in that world in a healthy family and a healthy church. I just thought this is normal, average reality for everybody. I had no idea. Now, again, I am so grateful to God for every way he blessed me all those years. But I was just saying to a friend this morning at breakfast that for me, personally, for far too long as a pastor, I didn’t really understand what people were lugging into church every Sunday. The questions, the fears, the regrets, the heartache, and so forth. And I am so grateful that I hit rock bottom. I finally began to understand what 99 percent of the human race is experiencing at this moment right now. And they’re entered into my heart this fierce sense of care for them, respect for them. I want to protect them. I want to provide a safe place for them to come in, take a deep breath, discover hope, rethink life, and so forth. I’m very earnest that they will not be mistreated. And so in Nashville at Emanuel Church, we used to have what we called the Emanuel mantra. We wanted to communicate that this is a church anybody can come to, and this is a Christian church for people who stink at Christianity. And we called it the Emanuel mantra. It was very simple: One, I’m a complete idiot. Two, my future is incredibly bright. Three, anybody can get in on this. I used to say that from the front, because I wanted to communicate to people who are just barely able to crawl into church, “You don’t have to serve. You don’t have to donate. If all you can do is just come and sit and heal, you’re so welcome here.” That, I think, is what this verse in Isaiah is talking about, that the High and Holy One dwells among the devastated, the crushed, the contrite, and the lowly.

Matt Tully
Let’s go there, Ray. Isaiah 57:15 is this verse. It’s a key verse for you and for this whole book. And I wonder if you can start off by reading it aloud for us, and then explain why you say it has these healing powers.

Ray Ortlund
In a way, this is the Christian gospel in one verse. It doesn’t explicitly mention the cross, but this is the hope and the good news of God’s grace for the undeserving in one verse. “For thus says the One who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: ‘I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the heart of the contrite.’” So when we really need help, when life is not normal, when we are terrified, everything’s falling apart, where do go to find God? Well, that verse says God dwells, he lingers in, keeps an address at two places. One, way up high. It says, “I dwell in the high and holy place.” But we can’t go there. And he also dwells way down low among the lowly and the crushed and the contrite. So God dwells up in this heavenly place with angelic beings and also way down at the bottom of human society with devastated, terrified, exhausted people who are wondering if they even have a future anymore. And in between those two extremes—way up high, way down low—is a social space that I call the mushy middle. Now, the mushy middle is where the kids are above average, the career is on track, we have enough money to keep a lot of trouble out and a lot of comfort in, and “church” is a weekend option for upgrading our already pretty good life to an even better life. And the Jesus in that “church” is the chaplain to the mushy middle. And he never judges. He’s grateful to have our attention for a whole hour on a Sunday morning. He never disagrees with us, and he’s just there for us. You know what I mean? Now, there’s a lot of so-called Christianity like that. Some churches cater to the mushy middle. The problem is that it’s just harder to find the Lord there. Now, God is present everywhere, but he’s not present in the same way everywhere. And when he says in Isaiah 57:15, “I dwell in the high and holy place, and I dwell down among the crushed and lowly,” that means he manifests and reveals himself, gives himself, moves close in those two places—way up high and way down low. So that’s where we go to find God.

12:08 - Are You in the Mushy Middle?

Matt Tully
What are some of the other warning signs? If someone’s listening right now and they don’t want to be in the mushy middle, they don’t want to be content with a passive, a little bit distant, uninterested kind of relationship with God, what are some of the warning signs that they should be looking at in their own life to assess, “Am I comfortable in this kind of Christianity?”

Ray Ortlund
One indicator would be how do I perceive people who are devastated? Do I look at them with disdain? Do I look at them and think, Well, I may not be perfect, but I’ve never sunk that low. If I regard people who are struggling and suffering as beneath me, well, Jesus told the parable about the two men who went up to the temple to pray. And one, he says, stood there and said, “God, I thank you. I do all these good things, and I’m not like that guy over there.” Now, this man, the Pharisee, was Reformed. He said, “God, I thank you. I give you all the glory that I’m superior.” And the other man just basically crawled in on his hands and knees and said, “God, be merciful to me, a sinner.” And Jesus said that man went home justified. The parable begins, “And Jesus told this parable to those who trusted in themselves that they are righteous and despised others.” Those two always go together—one’s own complacency and self-admiration with disparaging others. So perceiving others in a condescending manner, looking down on them—that’s a pretty serious indicator I might be stuck in the mushy middle.

Matt Tully
I think this is a helpful nuance to what you’re saying, because I think someone could hear what you’ve said about the mushy middle and think, Well, does that just mean if there are good things going in my life, if my life isn’t in crisis right now, does that mean I’m necessarily there? But it seems like the real emphasis here is even how we perceive ourselves and how we perceive God and our need for God. Do we see him as kind of an optional add-on, or do we see that every day I desperately need his grace in my life?

Ray Ortlund
Yes. Thank you, Matt. That’s a great point. The Lord is so kind to us. He gives so many good gifts. Right now I’m doing some work in Ecclesiastes, and I’m really struck at how often Solomon uses the word “give” when he describes what God does. God gives joy. God gives work. We’re just being showered with his good gifts every day, and we praise and thank his holy name for every single one. And what if life were endless crisis and intensity? It would be unsustainable. It would crush us. I’m just saying, inevitably, there comes a time when everything falls apart and we have to rethink everything. And what I’m saying is that’s not a catastrophe, that’s not actually a disaster. That’s a breakthrough, by God’s grace. And that’s when he becomes more real than ever before. And even as we sort of recover and he graciously puts his hand under our chin up above the surface of the water, we begin to breathe again and we begin to hope again. We take with us, from then on, a more vivid heart awareness of his nearness, his care, his gentleness, his humility, his sensitivity, his thoughtfulness, his patience. Matt, Jani and I spent a day with David Powlison, the biblical counselor—what a dear, precious man he was—back in Philadelphia, right in the middle of our rock bottom. And it was just a great day. And several years later, I saw David at an event and he said, “Ray, how are you doing with all that?” And I said, “David, I’m embarrassed to admit to you how much it still bothers me and kind of eats at me.” And he said, “Ray, God is patient.” Oh, those three words! God is patient. Matt, he’s not looking at you and me with a stopwatch in his hand. Click. “Okay, come on. Let’s see some progress here. What are you waiting for?” It’s not like that. Where would we be without the patience of God? I don’t change quickly. I don’t change easily. But God is patient, and when we go to that place of deep sorrow and loss and heartache, he’s not only there; he’s there with open arms.

16:40 - The Rock Bottom of Being Trapped by Our Sin

Matt Tully
Ray, you mentioned your story of rock bottom, which is maybe in the broad category of betrayal. And that’s one of the categories that you address in the book. You hit on a few other ways that we can sometimes hit rock bottom. I wonder if you could just walk us through those. The next one that you highlight is when we feel trapped by our sin. Speak a little bit to the ways that God can use those feelings to make himself real to us.

Ray Ortlund
I forget which of our Puritan fathers it was, but he said it so well. “Satan shows the bait, but he hides the hook.” And we all know exactly what he’s talking about. We fall for a temptation, we’re restless—Following Jesus is so confining. Why can’t I think for myself? Why can’t I explore my options? And then we go do something really reckless. And then we find it gets its hooks into us. It’s easy to get in and hard to get out. Every single one of us understands that. Jesus said, “He who sins is a slave to sin.” It gets a power over us and inevitably, we go there. When we’re the ones who do the betraying, well, thank God for brick walls that we run into, where we finally have to face ourselves and own up and just fall before the Lord—and perhaps others—and confess our sins. James 5:16: “Therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed.” The Roman Catholic Church has confession as an ordinance in the formal structures of their ministry. I think James 5:16 is talking about something far more profound, but we Protestants, to whom do we confess our sins? And it says confess your sins to one another. So this is mutual. There’s a transparency in real Christianity. And then it says, “Pray for one another that you may be healed.” That’s where healing is found. When we’re trapped in our own sins, confession and prayer with Christian brothers and sisters, as is appropriate, however that might be appropriate in any given relationship.

18:51 - The Rock Bottom of Loneliness

Matt Tully
I know that’s something that you and your church have done for a long time very intentionally, but you’re right, it’s something that sounds good in theory, but we struggle to actually do that in our lives. Another one of the categories of hitting rock bottom that you address is loneliness. And loneliness is one of those struggles that just by definition, it’s something that we often struggle with alone. When we don’t have that community, that’s what it is. It’s the lack of true community. So how does God meet us if we’re feeling alone?

Ray Ortlund
Solitary confinement is the worst form of punishment. And it’s really, really hard to bear. So many people in our nation today say they have no friend. They’re lonely. Our relationships and community groups and institutions that used to bring us together when America was sort of a more traditional culture, they’ve broken down. And we’re all aware of it. We all suffer the effects. My dad used to say, and I love how he said this, he said, “Take a risk, and go give your heart away.” I would say to anyone who’s lonely, look around and ask yourself (you can pray about it as well, of course), Who do I respect? Who do I trust? And go have coffee with that person. Go stick your neck out. Open your heart and say, “You know, I would really like to go to a deeper place with some trusted friends. And I wonder if we could put together something that maybe we could try it for three months and see how it works. We could get together for coffee every other week or something like that, maybe read some Scripture. And I would love the privilege of becoming vulnerable and transparent with you. Do you want to think about that? Could we consider that?” Now, that’s a scary step to take. Okay, well, let’s take it. Let’s not let fear hold us back. In Hamlet, old Polonius says to his son, as I recall, about friends, “And those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried.” In other words, you’ve chosen them as friends, they’ve been tested, they’ve been found faithful. “And those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried, grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel.” Okay, here’s a goal for every single one of us for the rest of our lives. We will stop losing friends. We will regain lost friends. We will make new friends, and there will be less loneliness in this world.

21:26 - The Rock Bottom of Death

Matt Tully
A final category that you deal with, which is the ultimate enemy here that we all face at some point, is death itself. And I wonder if there’s someone even listening right now who is facing death, whether it’s their own death—they’ve just got some diagnosis or they have something that’s inevitably leading in a certain direction—or maybe they have a loved one that has recently passed away, and they’re just wrestling with the reality of death. It’s a reality that we so often push away from our consciousness until it becomes impossible to ignore. What does God say to us in the face of that death?

Ray Ortlund
Matt, that’s such a poignant question. Thank you for asking that. I read somewhere that back in the Victorian days of the nineteenth century, people talked frankly about death, but sex was the taboo subject. We have flipped that. We never stop talking about sex, but death, we have no idea. And then when we do go to a funeral, it’s not called a funeral. It’s called a celebration of life, and it’s sort of chipper and upbeat. Well, okay, I understand in a way what that’s about, but they’re going to call my funeral a funeral, Matt. I’m making sure of that.

Matt Tully
Why?

Ray Ortlund
A friend the other day called me a death non-avoidant person.

Matt Tully
That’s an interesting compliment, I guess.

Ray Ortlund
Yeah, I think it was meant to be, actually. Because, brother, if Christ is risen, and we’re following him into resurrection immortality, we can stop avoiding, fearing, ignoring death. We can look at it right in the face and say to death, “You sorry loser! You have no claim on me at all. You think you’re going to win? Well, I’m going to show you. I’m going to dance on your grave.” We should be cheerfully defiant of death. And I’m thinking of John 21, when Jesus speaks to Peter. Jesus describes to Peter how he’s going to die. I wish the Lord would do this for me. I would be very interested to know in advance. But he says that to him. This is in John chapter 21:9: “This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.” Now, here’s why I love that so much, and it’s true for every Christian, not just Peter. When Peter died, he didn’t just die; he glorified God. Matt, you and I, unless the Lord comes back first, there’s going to come a day when we die. We have a birthday, we have a death day. We know our birthday, we don’t know our death day, but God has that day circled on his calendar for me and for you and for everyone listening. And when that day comes and we can no longer care for ourselves, we can no longer breathe, and our body shuts down, in that moment, we will be glorifying God. How? Well, John, the author, says, “And after saying this, Jesus said to Peter, ‘Follow me.’” Now, I love the realization, Matt, that you and I don’t have to orchestrate how we die so that we make sure our death glorifies God. All we do is today, at this moment, follow Jesus. And then tomorrow, follow Jesus. And then the day after that, follow Jesus. He’ll take care of everything. He will lead us to a death that will glorify God. For example, and this is actually quite spectacular, my own dad. The man was a saint. He had pulmonary fibrosis. His lungs became hardened and sort of leathery, and they didn’t process oxygen well, so he often felt as though he was underwater, fighting for breath, especially if he exerted himself. And I don’t know how this happened, but one time mom found him on the floor of their home in California. He had collapsed, fighting for breath. Mom, of course, was so distressed. She was there with him. And between gulping down some air, dad said to my mom, “No, Anne, no. This is a gift. It’s a gift.” Dad trusted God and he followed Christ, even when Christ led him into pulmonary fibrosis. And he received it not as a curse but as a gift. And then the day he died, in 2007, the family gathered there at his bedside, they read Scripture, they sang hymns, dad gave a word of patriarchal blessing to the family, and died. Now, Matt, I don’t know if I’m going to have consciousness to speak to Jani and my children. Maybe I’ll die in a car accident. I don’t know. God decides that. But what we know from John 21 is that if we will follow Jesus, he will lead us not only into each day but to that final day. And however it goes down for me, however it goes down for you and every listener, a Christian following Jesus doesn’t just die, but glorifies God. In fact, back in I can’t remember which chapter it is—I think Deuteronomy 32—God says to Moses, “Moses, I want you to go up on that mountain there and die and be gathered to your people.” What a remarkable command. God’s going to give me that command someday, and you, and every listener. And that means that when you and I die, we will be obeying God. Our last moment in this mortal world will be a moment of wonderful obedience, faithfulness, consecration. And then God said to Moses, “Die and be gathered to your people.” The Apostle’s Creed refers to the communion of saints. Matt, you’ve got that picture of Martin Luther up behind you there in your study. And Matt, when you walk into heaven, it may well be that there you’ll be and you will see the Lord. Maybe he’ll be fifteen feet away, and he will look at you, and you will look at him, and he will smile at you. And he might give you a great big bear hug. He’ll say, “Welcome.” And then all these other people, the communion of saints, you’ll be gathered to your people. Martin Luther might come up with a great big, vigorous handshake and invite you into a conversation about justification by faith alone! It’s just going to be wonderful. And we’re one heartbeat away from that glorious eternal welcome.

Matt Tully
I love that at the end of that chapter on dying, you share a little anecdote from World War II, where a newspaper reporter asked C. S. Lewis what he would do if the German Luftwaffe dropped a bomb on him in England. And obviously, England knew what it was like to be bombed by Germany. London was bombed. And Lewis had this incredible little line in response. I wonder if you could tell us what he said.

Ray Ortlund
It was an Australian journalist, and the British knew that the Germans were working on the atomic bomb. So it was not just any old bomb; it was the big one. And Lewis said, “If I see that bomb heading straight for me, I’m going to stick out my tongue at it and say, ‘Poo! You’re just a bomb. I am an immortal soul!’” I love that!

Matt Tully
That’s just amazing. But it has that perspective. It’s not that death is relativized for a Christian. We understand its limits. It has a power over us, but it’s a limited power. It’s a power that will be undone in the last day. And that’s such an incredible, incredible thing for us to hold on to as we face whatever our rock bottom might be, that ultimately it will be undone by our Lord.

Ray Ortlund
I think the Lord is calling us to face not only death, but all the sufferings that lead up to it. To face our sufferings and advancing age, decrepitude, injury, and so forth—face it all with a cheerful defiance. Death will take us out, but at every step along the way, we prevail by not being intimidated and not being disheartened, but by rejoicing in Christ every step of the way. In fact, Matt, here’s how we can wake up every day by God’s grace for his glory: we’re going to go give the devil a really bad day, and we’re going to have fun doing it, and we’re going to glorify Christ. And that doesn’t mean that we’re sparkling, perfect Christians. We have many weaknesses and many failings. But even that we offer to Christ cheerfully. He is our all-sufficient Savior. Martin Luther, again, he’s taught me more than anyone else about cheerful defiance because Jesus is our all-sufficient Savior. Jesus loves and saves sinners, Matt. Let’s admit it. If we want in on Jesus, we’ve got to be, as Isaiah says, among the contrite and lowly.

30:39 - A Pastoral Prayer for Those at Rock Bottom

Matt Tully
Ray, to close this out here, I wonder if you might consider praying for those of us who are listening, but especially for the person who maybe does find him or herself in this rock bottom spot, whatever it might be. Maybe it is that betrayal. Maybe it is their own sin, where they just feel completely trapped. Or maybe it is some kind of sickness or illness, some physical infirmity that they can’t escape. I wonder if you would pray to close us, that they would understand what Christ means to them right now.

Ray Ortlund
Thank you for that. It’s a very sensitive suggestion. So many people are suffering right now, suffering deeply. Lord Jesus Christ, thank you for being the Lord of the lowly. You dwell in a high and holy place, but also down here with us at our lowest, with us at our worst. You are not aloof. You’re not above it all. You’re not too busy for people like us. But you are down among us right here, right now. So we pray for everyone listening. Lord, give us an awareness—an existential, real-time awareness—of your nearness to us at this very moment. Your heart for us, your care for us, your presence. We are so grateful that we are not God forsaken. So grateful for your presence, your favor, your advocacy, your cross, your Spirit, your word. Now, Lord, whatever our next step is, help us to take that step right now. Give us that grace, Lord. Thank you. In Jesus’s name, Amen.

Matt Tully
Amen. Thank you, Ray, for speaking with us today.

Ray Ortlund
Oh, it’s a privilege. Thank you, Matt.

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