Podcast: Unicorns, Allegory, and Stories That Give Us Hope (Kathryn Butler)

February 17, 2025 by: Crossway

This article is part of the The Crossway Podcast series.

A Look at Writing Christian Fiction

In this episode, Kathryn Butler talks about writing the Dream Keeper Saga, a middle grade adventure series. Kathryn shares how she crafted the books to weave together biblical themes and compelling storytelling and discusses the inspiration behind her characters and how the series first took shape.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | RSS

The Last Keeper

The Last Keeper

Kathryn Butler

In the conclusion to the Dream Keeper Saga, Lily faces her final battle against Eymah and his army, and an ancient scroll foretells the return of Prince Pax.

Topics Addressed in This Interview:

00:56 - The Gift of Imagination

Matt Tully
Katie, thanks so much for joining me today on The Crossway Podcast.

Katie Butler
Oh, Matt, it is always just a pleasure, truly. Before I even got on, my kids were saying, “What’s this podcast about?” I’m like, “Oh, it’s going to be fun. It’s with Matt Tully. It’ll be a delight.”

Matt Tully
I’m sure they knew exactly who that was. When we last spoke about the Dream Keeper Saga in 2022, the first book in the series had recently come out, and now we’re releasing the fifth and final book in that series. And so I wonder now, as a way to start our conversation,
as you think back at this journey that you’ve been on as an author, having this initial idea and now publishing the final book in the series, what comes to mind? What do you think about? Did the series come together the way that you were envisioning?

Katie Butler
Goodness. Honestly, the first and most overwhelming thought I have is just God’s faithfulness. This began not at the outset as an endeavor to write a full series. It really began, as I think I’ve talked in a prior podcast, as an attempt to steward a story that kind of popped out of the blue at a sensitive time. It was during COVID and at a time when I had been pondering the value of stories—really rich stories—to point to the gospel. And so it really began as me saying, “Okay, there might be something here. Let me just run with it and see what happens.” And it evolved into this greater storyline that has just been such a beautiful opportunity and a beautiful way to connect with kids, which was totally unanticipated in the sense that I’ve received communications from young readers who’ve loved this series and have been able to talk with me about the moments that were actually inspired by the gospel when I wrote it. The moments where light cuts through the darkness and our need for a savior, and kids identified those actually! And so it’s been just a remarkable journey and a gift that I never would have anticipated when I was driving to work at five o’clock at night to go work in the ICU and an image of a dragon in the kitchen popped into my head. I never would have foreseen that the outcome would be a series of books that have allowed conversations with kids about where we find our hope.

Matt Tully
That story about just how that image popped into your mind reminds me of I think a pretty well known story that J. K. Rowling, author of the Harry Potter series, will tell. I think she had said at one point that the whole series started with this image of a boy with this little lightning scar on his forehead, and from that grew this whole world and rich mythology that she’s interwoven into those. Reflect on that a little bit. Why do you think it might be an image often that is the initial impetus for these kinds of creative stories?

Katie Butler
And that story of it being an image that is the nidus for something greater I think is actually very common. C. S. Lewis talks about it for the Chronicles of Narnia as well. He didn’t sit down and say, “I’m going to write this beautifully rich, apologetic series for kids.” It started with an image of a faun holding an umbrella that lingered for years. And then he started asking questions and said, “Well, who is this faun?” And then the lion burst onto the scene, and he instantly knew that this was going to be Jesus. And so it wasn’t that he sat down and constructed it. And so it’s actually a pretty common experience. I think what it boils down to is that we’re made in God’s image, and he is a creator, and he has given us and imbued us with this ability, as a reflection of him, to create. And as grown ups, I think we are all very apt, when we have those moments of flights of fancy that kids just revel in and it comes so naturally to them, we dismiss them. That’s always what I’ve done, because I’ve got work to do and bills to pay and I have to do my taxes.

Matt Tully
More important things to focus on.

Katie Butler
Right. Exactly. Very extremely important things I need to do. But God’s given us that ability, and I think it really is a gift from him. Authors will talk about that experience, and it certainly was my experience. It almost feels like it’s outside of yourself. It’s not something you sit down intentionally to do and plot out. I teach writers’ workshops to high schoolers in our homeschool co-op, and I’ll always talk about it as stewarding your daydreams. When you have those moments, just even jot it down. And you don’t have to chase after it that moment if you’re on the way to drama club or whatever it is and it’s not the right moment. But don’t lose hold of it, and come back to it later, and start asking questions about it. But realize that those flashes of imagination can be gifts, and to try to steward those for his glory, just as we would anything else.

Matt Tully
And I’m just struck by how even if we’re not writers ourselves, even if I’ve never written a story, we all do love stories, even as readers or maybe increasingly today as viewers, whether it’s a TV show or a movie or even video games. Story has become such an important part of those experiences. What do you think it is about storytelling and story hearing that is such an important thing for us, especially as you think about it from a Christian perspective?

Katie Butler
I love this topic. Tolkien, in his essay On Fairy Stories, this long essay talking about fiction and myth and how it’s all caught up in the Christian narrative, he talks about that thrill that we have when we’re reading a story that touches us is actually a moment when the gospel breaks in through the narrative. He makes this argument that all of us are sub-creators made in the image of the ultimate Creator, and when we come across any kind of story that’s a reflection of the true story—the true narrative of the fact that we are fallen and doomed, but that we have a savior who redeems us and brings us into the home we were always meant to be in—that that breaks through and appeals to us so much because it reflects the truth. And so any story that has that same kind of narrative—themes of light triumphing in the darkness, themes of being saved, themes of redemption—they thrill us so much and they touch us because it’s actually snapping that cord that we all have that longs for God and that longs for redemption. And so I think that all truly great stories have aspects of that. It’s a reflection of the gospel, and it resonates so much because it’s what our souls need.

07:29 - The Spectrum of Christian Fiction

Matt Tully
I know in the fiction world, let’s say, there can be different perspectives on whether or not the idea of Christian fiction is a legitimate thing. Some people will say, “I want to write fiction. And yes, it has themes that resonate with Christian truth, but it’s not Christian fiction. It’s just fiction.” And you have other people who will say, “No, no, no. I actually would call what I’ve written Christian fiction.” Where do you fall on that conversation? Do you think of your book, this series, as Christian fiction for kids? Is it Christian fantasy? Or would you want to describe it or use a different kind of word for what you’re doing?

Katie Butler
I would say Christian fiction. If you Google this, and I’m sorry that I don’t know the reference offhand, there is an article out there that talks about the five types of Christian fiction on a spectrum, with some of them being very overt in talking about Christianity quite directly, and the opposite end being just books that you can recommend because they have moral themes in keeping with the Bible, but there’s no real shadow of the gospel. Of those, mine would be in the middle. I don’t mention Christ overtly, but there is allegory and symbolism throughout. There is a figure who is a figure of Christ. There are clear redemption arcs for the characters. There’s this sense that there is a power greater than ourselves who is in control and who is ultimately good. All of those themes weave throughout. Akin to the Narnia Chronicles, which are allegorical also, but not true allegory. I know Lewis was very much a stickler about this. It’s not a true allegory, like The Pilgrim’s Progress, if there’s not a one-to-one correlation where every character is symbolic. But there are these themes and echoes of the gospel. Mine would be more akin to that versus a series that’s wonderful that I would highly recommend by Amanda Cleary Eastep called the Tree Street Kids series. It’s kind of like Beverly Cleary and The Bobbsey Twins and is reminiscent of those books. The kids go to church, and the kids are wrestling with faith issues. It’s a bit more overt versus mine’s more symbolic. But it’s much clearer than say, “Oh, there’s nothing objectionable, and the characters are overall connecting themselves with morality that would be consistent with Christianity.” Mine’s more than that. Mine is trying to get kids thinking about where their salvation comes from, where they find hope in the midst of turmoil. The fact that evil and darkness is something that exists because we live in a fallen world, yet we need not despair about it. So I would include mine as Christian fiction, but in that more symbolic category.

Matt Tully
What was it about that middle row that appealed to you with this series? Why not go so far as actually setting this story in a world similar to ours where they would be able to speak directly about Christ and about the gospel? Or on the other hand, why not make it a little bit more hidden and with more big-picture principles for living?

Katie Butler
I think because I was so heavily influenced by Lewis. I can recall when I was a kid—and I did not grow up in a Christian household, and I didn’t know the Lord till I was thirty—but I can recall very distinctly reading The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. When Eustace was locked in a dragon form and was trying to rid himself of that dragon skin, and he scratches and scratches and a layer falls off and there’s still a layer underneath. My anxiety was mounting as I was sitting on my pink shag carpet at the age of seven reading this because I’m like, “How is he going to get out of this?” And then Aslan comes and tears all of that dragon hide away in one movement. And I got chills reading it. And I didn’t know why. And it wasn’t until years later that I understood it’s because I was glimpsing the gospel for the first time. This fact that we can’t achieve salvation ourselves, but that God has to take away our sins for us. But that image was still so powerful that it struck me and it struck that cord that I was talking about. And so that just really was very impactful for me. And so when I started writing, I wanted to do the same thing where I was using a story as a vehicle. And maybe it’s a kid who isn’t part of the church, but it would be something where the story would resonate, and that maybe then when they hear the gospel later, they have that same kind of aha-moment, where they recall and they remember and they know intuitively the import of what they’re hearing in the Christian message. So that was why. It was really wedding a story done very well, a powerful story, with how do I show the truth through it that it might appeal to kids who haven’t heard the gospel yet?

12:12 - Authentic Creatures, People, and Dragons

Matt Tully
One of the best things about a fictional series that I’m sure we’ve all experienced as we’ve read them over the years is just how you get to know some of the characters, and some of the characters really become dear to you. You feel like you know them. You just love learning about what’s happening to them. You love seeing them grow and progress. Sometimes you might hate when they get hurt or when they’re sad or they’re struggling in some way, but there’s just this connection that can be built with characters. And I think it’s probably safe to say that one of the most popular characters in the series that you’ve written is Cedric. So I wonder if you can just tell us a little bit about Cedric without getting into any spoilers. Tell us about where the idea for him came from and even a little bit of his journey throughout the entire series.

Katie Butler
Yeah, he’s my favorite character too. Cedric is a dwarf dragon. He’s the first character that—

Matt Tully
Which just sounds cute. Just the idea of a dwarf dragon already gets you thinking about what this is all about.

Katie Butler
He’s a red dragon that’s about the size of a Labrador Retriever. So he’s small. He speaks in a British accent, and he struggles with his identity. He lives in a world where he’s expected to do things like roast knights and terrorize villages. As the series goes on you learn why, but he’s seen a glimmer of something greater and he longs instead to lead a different life, but he still struggles with the fact that he is and was born a dragon. So a lot of his character arc is wrestling with that, of where his identity is, and he tries to earn his own salvation very often, but then is constantly bogged down by the fact that, no, he’s just like we are, fallen in sin. He is still a dragon. But he is loyal and witty and incredibly devoted to trying to do the right thing and to protecting the main character.

Matt Tully
And that’s one of the things I love about the book is that there is a main character. Her name is Lily, and she’s this young girl. But you’ve got a whole cast of other characters, and many of them are quite well drawn. There’s depth to these characters, even some of the antagonists. There’s depth to their motivations and what they’re doing. It’s not just paper cutouts in service of the plot or one character. How did you go about doing that? While keeping the story focused on Lily and her journey, you nevertheless bring in I think what will strike people as pretty authentic creatures, people, even when they’re dragons. What was your strategy for that?

Katie Butler
I always try to tell my students that whenever you have a character enter, your characters need to be real to you. So that sounds kind of vague, but honestly, that was just the guiding principle. I never would sit and draft a character. Honestly, a character would kind of burst on the scene. And so then my job was to say, “Who is this character? What are their traits? If they were shopping at a grocery store, what would they put in their cart?” Just as if it was my own family or my friends and they’re having all of their complexities and their quirks, they would be real to me. And so a lot of it is in the process of preparing to write, getting to know them. Some have said that my books, especially the first couple, are very plot driven, and I can see how they would say that. I tried to make them fast paced to try to keep kids attention. But during the writing process, actually, it was me putting characters into situations and seeing what they would do. So, in my mind, it was actually very character driven, because what happened depended upon what they would do in that scenario. So for kids who are interested in writing or even grown ups, I think that helped a lot is just to think about the people in your own life, and approach these characters as if they would be people that you would meet and try to get to know them, and then they take on a life of their own.

Matt Tully
Were there any characters who were especially difficult to write? As you tried to get into this character’s head, so to speak, were there any that you struggled with?

Katie Butler
A little bit with Keisha, only because I didn’t want to make her flat in the sense that she’s really cool all the time. I wanted her to be multi-dimensional and have flaws like we all do. She kind of comes across sometimes as being immune to any kind of fault or to any kind of weakness, and I didn’t want that to be the case because I thought that would be inauthentic. So she’s probably the only one. I really liked her and I kind of wanted to be like her, and so I needed to make sure that I wasn’t making her too perfect.

Matt Tully
Yeah, absolutely. Did you ever feel that dynamic on the other side of the spectrum with the antagonists, the bad characters? Did you ever have to guard against making them too simplistic in their badness?

Katie Butler
Probably the one that was most at risk for that is the main antagonist, Eymah, who’s supposed to be a reflection of Satan. I needed to be careful there, and he was the only one. I found my other one, Magnus, comes across maybe as uni-dimensional. When he’s first introduced in the third book, by the fifth book—spoiler alert. I might be giving a spoiler by saying that he shows up again!

Spoilers Ahead

17:31 - Writing a Christ Figure

Matt Tully
Well, let’s actually get into spoiler territory. Actually, just a note for listeners. If you don’t want to hear these spoilers, we’ll put a timestamp in the show notes so that you can jump ahead and not hear any more spoilers about these books. But that’s your fair warning as of right now. Let’s get into a couple of those. Let’s talk about Pax a little bit and his role as the series’ primary Christ figure. How did you think about his character? Was that always a desire to have a clear Christ figure, or did that develop organically over time? And then how did you think about making those connections? Because there are very clear parallels to Christ, but how did you do that in a way that preserved the integrity of his own character in this story?

Katie Butler
Goodness, that’s a wonderful question. I was very concerned. I knew from the get-go that there was going to be a Christ figure, and I wanted the most obvious opportunities to present kids with some of the Christian themes that mattered to me throughout the series. The first book was really introducing Christ as Savior. The second was presenting the gospel. The third book was a lot about trusting in God more than ourselves and trusting in God’s sovereignty and his path for us more than what seems right in our own eyes. The fourth was about comprehending that God is with us under all circumstances, no matter where we are. I had a lot of Psalm 139 references in my head as I was writing it. And then the last one is Revelation and the new heavens and the new earth. So those were the big themes that I had throughout. I had mapped out maybe the first two. And to me, it was very apparent that to really explore these well, I would need somebody who was Christ, like an Aslan character almost. He was a unicorn because my kids were into unicorns. I’ll just be completely candid. That’s what the inspiration was. But on the other hand, because of the fact that unicorns were powerful and pure, I thought it would be an easy transition to capture those aspects of Christ. And then the real challenge throughout was I really wanted to remain true, whenever I was speaking in Pax’s voice, of reflecting Scripture. So there are moments where what he says sounds very similar to what Jesus says, and that’s intentional. It’s because I didn’t want to corrupt Scripture in any kind of way. And so I tried to really clearly think, Okay, if Jesus was to respond, what would that be? And I tried to really adhere as much as possible to Scripture. It was a fine line. I felt very convicted about it, that I wanted to be faithful and honoring through it. So that required work.

Matt Tully
Yeah, because I think kids are going to read this and if they know something of the gospel story, they will probably start making some connections here. And I could see how that would be a sensitive thing. Were there ways in which, with Pax’s character, that you intentionally did have him depart from Jesus? Not necessarily in things that he said, but just in key milestones of his story, are there differences that you were pretty intentional about?

Katie Butler
I wanted to just make the overall story consistent internally. So there are obviously things that Jesus did not do that Pax does. The kinds of things that he says and vouches, I think, are consistent with Scripture. But he’s a character, and so I needed to make sure that throughout whatever was happening scene to scene reflected what had happened in past scenes. And so he does evolve as his own character as a result, and these are not strictly from the Bible, just because he’s reflecting upon what happened in a prior encounter with Lily and everything that’s ensued since that he knows about and how that influences her and how he calls her out on her waywardness and brings her back. Those moments. So I tried to walk both those lines where it’s consistent with the story but also reflects who Christ is.

Matt Tully
Looking back on the journey of writing this book, and in particular Pax’s story and wanting to be faithful to what Scripture teaches, do you feel like you gained new insights into the true gospel story over the course of meditating so much on it and thinking about how you could express it in this creative way? Do you feel like your understanding of Scripture and of the gospel has changed or deepened in any way?

Katie Butler
I think my understanding of sanctification is deepened because a lot of the stories, and really the whole series, is Lily’s faith journey. That’s ultimately what it is. It’s her being lost, finding her hope through Pax, and then afterwards, which I think is true for all of us on the Christian journey. We always think about our conversion story as this shining moment, but then we have a lifetime afterwards of falling and growing and learning and learning to lean upon Christ and learning again to lean upon Christ. And that is a lifelong process. And so the whole series is really that aspect. The first book is Lilly’s conversion story. In the next book she really has an understanding of the gospel. And then it continues on from there and the next three books is really about her sanctification. So I think reflecting upon that and realizing how the gospel shapes us but how also we’re in this process because we are still living in the now but the not yet, and we are still fallen. We’re still stumbling, struggling, wrestling, and deepening in our faith and our trust in God. I think I have more insight into that because I was walking along this journey with her.

23:03 - A Surprising Ending

Matt Tully
The final book ends with Lily being given something of a charge, kind of a mission for the rest of her life. And I wonder if you can just explain what that mission was. Why did you want to end it like that with this final emphasis? Again, I think it might be a little bit surprising to certainly some of the younger listeners who are engaging with this. Can you explain what you were thinking there?

Katie Butler
So I think perhaps in keeping with my Calvinist understanding of theology, I really wanted to lean into the idea that God is sovereign and that all the moments of her story up until now were intentional. And while she’s making decisions (as we all do with our free will) and wrestling and struggling throughout all the books, you realize that Pax was behind the scenes the entire time working through it all, and that she had a greater purpose to play that she had no idea of and that she couldn’t have anticipated. And I think that’s true for all of us. I think about Ephesians 2:10 very often, that we’re made in Christ Jesus for good works that God’s prepared for us beforehand so that we could walk in them. And she finds herself in that position, and that journey or that path that she has to walk is a very difficult and dangerous one, but it’s one that was ordained for her. And she walks it with Pax there, having a greater plan that she doesn’t even fully understand or know about until the very end. I really wanted the last book to be a reflection of our final hope in the new heavens and the new earth. And so this part that she plays is in the greater story that all of us can look forward to, which is that for now we’ve groan, but he’s making all things new. And so I really wanted that to be the final book—focusing on Revelation, focusing on his return and the new heavens and the new earth and making all things new. That was really the thrust of the last one.

Matt Tully
And I love that emphasis because so often, even in how we tell the story, we can so focus on Christ’s death and even his resurrection, which is obviously the core of the gospel message, but we sometimes miss the fact that redemption is not completely here yet. We live in the already/not yet, and we are awaiting the return of Christ and the consummation of all things. And so I love the way that your book holds that forth as the final hope of the series, the final goal. And I think that shapes kids to understand those things as well.

Katie Butler
I hope so.

End of Spoilers

25:38 - Revisiting the Somnium Realm

Matt Tully
Well, let’s get to the non-spoiler section again. I think oftentimes with fantasy novels like this, you create obviously this huge world where there are all these characters and it’s maybe different rules and laws for how things work and interesting creatures that we might meet. So as you were working on the series and now that you’re finished with it, are there any parts of the Somnium Realm or its history that you wished you could have gotten more into and explored more deeply but you for the sake of the story had to keep things moving?

Katie Butler
Oh my goodness, yes! Oh, wow. Absolutely. There are parts that I just want to go to and stay.

Matt Tully
The move.

Katie Butler
I love the Painted Woodland. I’d love to just live there. I had this whole idea for chains of islands off the coast. I mentioned a couple of them, the Gemstone Isle, that I would have loved to dive into and delve deeper into. I would have loved to just continue journeying through it, but it would be entirely self-indulgent and just for my own playful meanderings.

Matt Tully
You read about how Tolkien and others had whole worlds behind the book that peek through in different ways. And obviously, Tolkien wrote a number of other books and things were published after his death that gave us more insight into the world that he had created. But I think that sometimes what gives these fantasy stories some depth to them is that there really is a lot going on that the author’s not always bringing to the story itself.

Katie Butler
Yes, absolutely. You have to just make decisions and say, “Okay, I’ll put that to rest.” I tell my students that too. Just write it down and then just put it to the side and maybe you’ll use it later.

Matt Tully
Do you think you’ll ever want to return to the Somnium Realm and maybe create other stories in this the same world?

Katie Butler
I’ll be honest. I would love to write a prequel about Cedric. I’d love to write a book just devoted to his backstory and his own journey. I don’t know when that will happen, because I’ve got a pretty full schedule at the moment. But maybe in a couple of years when things free up, I would love to have that opportunity to go back and hang with him a little while longer.

27:57 - Preview: The Lamplight Adventure Series

Matt Tully
That’s a great segue into maybe a little preview for some of the other exciting projects that you’re working on with Crossway right now. There’s another project for kids in the same age range as the Dream Keeper Saga that you’re working on. I wonder if you could just give a little preview for those who have appreciated your work thus far. What’s going on with that series?

Katie Butler
This is a series that was just so much fun. I’ve written two books for it, and it was just a delight. The old choose your own adventure stories that you and I probably remember from back in the 80s and 90s that were so popular—these are books that are in that vein, except they’re meant for a Christian audience. So this would be in the Christian fiction that’s a little bit more overt. There are a couple of books. One takes place on the North Sea in the 1800s with a crew that is searching for the sea monster, the Kraken. The other book takes place in ancient Rome during the time of Emperor Nero with the great fire. And in both of them, the reader is the protagonist—the main character in the story—and so it’s written in second person. The kids get to choose how the story goes. So at the end of every chapter, there’s a series of two or three questions: “If you want to explore the cave, turn to this page. If you want to stay where you are and look for treasure here, turn to this page.” It’s called the Lamplight Adventure Series. What’s different about these books is that when you then turn to that page, there will be a psalm or a proverb or a verse that helps to inform the choice that you made. And so it’s meant to try to train kids hearts as you go so that it’s an adventurous story, but it’s also giving them Scripture throughout and helping them to think about their decisions. I chose the title “Lamplight” because I was thinking of how God’s word is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path. And so that’s the impetus for it, and the inspiration for that is that they’re involved in a story that they get to choose, but their choices have meaning, because Scripture informs all of our choices. And so helping them to reflect upon that as they go.

Matt Tully
I love the time travel dynamic you have with this, where these stories are each going to be set in a different place and a different time, and it kind of allows kids to just get to imagine. My kids are big into the I Survived book series. They’re all a little bit intense, and sometimes a little bit extreme.

Katie Butler
Like, “You really like this before bed?”

Matt Tully
But the cool thing is they kind of get to experience what it was like to travel on the Titanic and to be in ancient Pompeii and kind of be around the world at different times. It’s just such an exciting thing for kids to even come to love history.

Katie Butler
Yeah, absolutely. That was just the fun of it, getting them to be excited about the past and our history. And also I tried to pick, especially for the one that’s set in ancient Rome, the plight of Christians in Rome, so they can see actually how Christian history is woven throughout all of it. And throughout, these are more overt, so Christianity is mentioned quite directly through them so they can see the role that faith plays in a whole plethora of different situations. But yeah, just to get kids' imaginations lit afire while also giving them God’s word.

Matt Tully
Absolutely. Katie, thank you so much for your work on this incredible series, the Dream Keeper series, and we are excited to see what you have next. We pray that the Lord continues to use your creative gifts to build up his people.

Katie Butler
Thank you so much, Matt. It’s always just a pleasure to chat with you.

Popular Articles in This Series

View All

Podcast: Help! I Hate My Job (Jim Hamilton)

January 06, 2020

Jim Hamilton discusses what to do when you hate your job, offering encouragement for those frustrated in their work and explaining the difference between a job and a vocation.

Crossway is a not-for-profit Christian ministry that exists solely for the purpose of proclaiming the gospel through publishing gospel-centered, Bible-centered content. Learn more or donate today at crossway.org/about.